Trigger warning - incomprehensible tragedy

[Nimbostratus100]

Two beautiful little boys strangled, and mother hung, and the boys looked so well cared for and loved, plenty of toys, nice clothes, lovingly photographed

I just cant bear to think of what went on in that house in those last moments, those poor poor children

How can this happen? How was this impossible to see coming?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65065560

You need to understand when your suicidal your not thinking rationally. At the time I genuinely felt my kids would be better of with me then left behind

Psychosis is the only reasonable thing I can think of

EXACTLY!! Wtf the sob story about her being a single mum. There are millions of single mums out there who have tough lives. I am one of them. I've raised my daughter with zero support from ex or my family who all live abroad. So what? You don't kill your children because life is tough. There simply is not a single excuse that could justify doing what she did. It's evil beyond belief and absolutely no different to the men who kill their families.

You need to understand. Someone who is suicidal is not thinking rationally. It would therefore be better if the children of those with a mental illness were removed for their own safety, because people with a mental illness are a danger to their children.

now I don’t believe that to be the case, but the reality is that you can’t have it both ways.

if you’re going to insist that someone with a mental illness cannot be held responsible for killing their children, then you can reasonably argue that the children of the mentally Ill are at risk and would be better off in care.

if you don’t believe that to be the case, then you have to accept that anyone who murders their children is entirely responsible.

For starters the majority people with a mental illness are not suicidal and even more are not homicidal. Also I never said they weren't responsible and if the person is still alive they will be going to prison for murder, as had always been the case. However what I am saying like in many cases when the individual has reached out for help and nothing has been done by the professionals to safeguard the children and offer support to the individual then they are also partially to blame which is why in a lot these cases the professionals around them will also get investigated and often get fired for not following proper procedures and or falsifying documents. Think of all the cases where children have been murdered and social workers have got fired due to failing to safeguard the child

Well, firstly there is absolutely 0 suggestion at this point that she reached out in desperation or declared herself to be suicidal. That’s just something people have imagined in order to justify this woman murdering her children.

Secondly, while if she reached out and was ignored questions could be asked about why support wasn’t available, she, and only she, is responsible for having murdered her children. Unless she actively told someone that she harboured thoughts of murdering her children no-one could possibly have known that that was going to happen.

Murdering her children still makes her pure evil, no matter how allegedly ill she was.

Sadly, we have had a few suicides per generation in my family of both young men and young women. Around half had young children at the time, but not one of them harmed their children or anyone other than themselves for that matter.

I cant find it in myself to agree with the implication from a pp that being suicidal generally causes or excuses child murder. I agree that severe psychosis is really the only thing that can rarely cause mistaken identity and accidental homicide- but generally people suffering a psychotic break are not suicidal in the sense of knowingly ending their own life.

If he was a struggling single parent, people might well say that. But that is rarely the scenario when men are the perpetrators.

@derbylass81 I am a single mum who has no family support and i am also suffering from mental health, i have left an abusive relationship but i wouldn't dream to hurt any of kids.... There is no excuse plus there are soo many people in my boat too that dont kill their children. Yes everyone copes with things differently but there is absolutely no excuse for her to have allegedly murdered her children... It's very worrying if u are making up excuses for this mother murdering her children.

I'm not trying to justify what she did im saying I understand and that I don't think she is evil. Also just be aware that it's likely her friends and family might read this thread so think about your words

You know what? Two innocent children are dead, killed at th hands of the person they were supposed to be able to trust the most.

And posters like you and others on here are bending over backwards to defend this woman, to try to minimise her intentions, by explaining away her acts as excuseable on the basis of some hypothetical illness.

And in doing that you are minimising the actual victims here.

It’s disgusting.

I'd assume her friends and family will be more upset at the deaths of the children she murdered than of people not centering their killer and thinking 'oh poor her'?

It's not really worrying, there's no need to be hyperbolic about it.

I was simply expressing an opinion. I'm not out lobbying for mothers to be allowed to kill their children.

I also seem to remember a huge outpouring of sympathy on here for Olga Freeman who killed her child in a burst of desperation during lockdown.

I think you're confusing your words. What you're referring to as "evil" is the interpretation of her actions, which is fine, but that does not necessarily correlate with her "intentions". They are something that will forever remain unknown.

I think her actions override her intentions though.
A speeding or drunk driver may not have gone out with the intention to kill someone, but if their actions have resulted in someone's death, would you just say, 'oh but they didn't intend for this to happen, they're not bad'.

Except she intentionally murdered her children. She deliberately strangled the first one while the second one watched, and then she strangled the second one.

This isn’t a case of someone e.g. hitting a pedestrian in a car while under the influence where the intention wasn’t necessarily to kill but the actions have overridden that intention.

When You don’t strangle someone unless you intend to kill them, so it’s not true to say that her intentions will be forever unknown. She intended to murder her children and then kill herself.

Oh fully agree with you @MayThe4th I'm probably not making sense at my reactions in the reaching people are making to make allowances for her!

No you’re making perfect sense and actually the drunk driver is a good analogy because that one is a perfect example of action cancelling out intention, whereas this woman intended to murder her children and followed that intention through with her actions.

I am absolutely incredulous at the amount of mothers who are defending this woman. And yes, by saying that “she must have been/must have suffered/nobody knows” they are absolutely defending her.

Here is no defence. None. Not even supposed mental illness.

Oddly enough most people with a mental illness aren’t murderers, and most people who end their own lives do so precisely because they believe their children will be better off without them.

When a man murders his children the overriding opinion here is how controlling to kill his children to get back at his ex, and how arrogant to think that his children are better off dead.

But when a woman does it we must feel compassion for her.

I don’t think so.

As for the poster who told me to watch my words because the friends and family might be reading it, Well firstly I seriously doubt they’re trawling mumsnet at this point in time to see whether, among the thousands of threads, there is one to discuss this, and secondly, they are presumably overwhelmingly sad at the brutal murders of their children/grandchildren/<insert relevant relationship>.

If a family member of mine murdered her children she could thank herself lucky that she’d decided to end her own life as well, because I would want to kill the bitch myself.

Vile because they are stating she is evil, because she allegedly killed her own kids? Are you okay? If this was a male munsnet will be dragging him down but because its a woman then she is the victim too ... People like you are just full of excuses and yes i am a single mother, sons father non existent, with no family support and severe mental health issues. Not going to go back and forth with or explain any further

*mumsnet

So you understand as someone with severe mental health issues how little control you have on the thoughts that go through your head and at times how little control you have over them. I will not call someone evil without knowing the full story. As I stated before in a few weeks when more information comes out its likely like in most of these cases that she reached out for help and was let down by the services that are supposed to protect her and her children. I'm still not excusing what she's done all im.saying is I understand as iv had them thoughts before and was massively let down by mh services and ss. The only thing that stopped anything happening was the fact my girls have fantastic dads who stepped in. If I had zero family or friends support I dread to think what may have happened

Did you have the same sympathy for the Epsom College murderer? He had mental health issues as well.

I don't know the case but if its the same situation but just a man instead of a woman then absolutely

I'm starting to think some posters are quite frightening between this thread and another about a woman who killed someone and the reaching to make excuses for them, with the views that it MUST be someone else's fault. So arguing that women lack control so much that we are reliant on others to stop us killing? Best keep us locked up inside and only go out with a chaperone maybe?