Epsom College Murder Suicide

[PleaseStopSayingHuBbY]

I'm shocked but not surprised. This world is depressing and scary for women.

Agree. And we are not to be shouted down in Parliament by misogynistic MPs when asking for women and child safeguarding. Or belittled. Or called bigots. Or dinosaurs. Labour now needs to STEP UP. Owen Jones needs to SHUT UP. The BBC needs to stop it’s biased reporting and their journalists need to stick up for the most successful author ever. The SNP and the Green Party and it seems Wales now too is lost already.

Again - the people referring to this as 'rogue' and 'random', impossible to predict or prevent and 'look over there at this case I've frantically googled where a woman suffering psychosis has murdered her children' are all obfuscating the problem of male violence.

This is not an isolated, out of the blue tragedy. This is not a crime women commit. There are signs and red flags for abuse and the more we allow people to pretend this kind of thing is rogue and random or genderless, the more we allow abusive men to continue.

For example, we know flashing is a precursor to escalating sexual violence. Yet police don't take it seriously (see Couzens). There are indicators and patterns for abusive men that are frequently ignored and minimised, by people pretending to handwring over the tragedy and urging us to find compassion for the poor violent murderer.

Anyone saying these crimes are due to rogue men or that women do it too, are people who are terrified of the patterns of male violence being seen and tackled.

@Ndd135632

i don’t know why they would delete it?

Ironic that a forum set up for women, run by women would shut down a valid comment/discussion about this issue which could affect anyone of us.

Its vital these issues are brought out into the open and the reasons discussed.

And when women's and children's safety is under discussion, women should not be excluded from the conversation in favour of men in make up and dresses.

WOMEN know how vulnerable we are - and we are not being allowed to protect wither ourselves or our children, We are not even being listened to when we point out the dangers. We've gone, in a couple of short, horrible years from
"Believe her"
to
"Believe "her" if "she" was born with a penis."

How the hell we ever got to this point I don't know, but it couldn't have happened without a societal hatred of, and contempt for, women, and a desire to keep us "in our place".

*either, not wither

Well said. Mass murderers in the US are nearly all men who began with domestic abuse. This is a gendered crime, pure and simple. We need to recognise the pattern of male violence so we can stop it.

I don't really care about the hurt feelings of men and those who have nice men in their lives. I have nice men in my life too!

Well, I wouldn't be sending my child to any school that had guns on site (whether on a rifle range or in staff houses) and I am astonished any parent is ok with that.

I agree

I disagree. Guns make it much easier and quicker and give the violent person so much more power.

I am sure I am by no means the only woman who feels chilled to the core at how much worse it would have been if my abusive ex had had a gun.

Its beyond me that so many people just don't understand that plain wickedness is a thing. Fucking armchair psychology. Stop using MH to explain away and justify everything. I am so sorry for a mother and daughter, taken away by an utterly callous and heartless man. I'm sick of male violence. Every day a story, every day minimising.

The point made that a successful woman is only as safe as her male partner lets her be is not just for successful women but all women.

There are women all the time in here minimizing certain abusive conduct. Either for themselves or others who are experiencing problems. Or they tell themselves it is fine. Or worse, they discuss really bad behaviour as romantic.

Now that's a problem women need to address. We can't control or manage abusive men. You can't give them therapy or have a discussion so it's all sorted. That is naive.

There is a lot of not my Nigel posts also. I don't think we should be scaring girls about men but I do think we could do a much better job in terms of, this is good behaviour from a man, this is not, this is where it goes wrong.

Because if you have worked in the field of domestic violence and abuse it is clear, really clear about these behaviours and yet... well... the message is just not there.

@Lollipop999 i dunno. Some posters got upset that I speculated that the husband had done it and likely because she was a shining light and that I would take some kind of weird glory out of being right. Go figure.

Tragic.

Really not the time. Can’t you see that??

Fair point.

Interesting statistics on filicide in the UK

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0058981

Yes - if he had not had a gun, she could perhaps (perhaps) have struggled with him long enough for Letty to get out immediate danger and to hide. Murdering them would have taken longer, The relative may have got there in time to save at least one of them, maybe both.

Reports are that he killed Emma first, in front of that poor little child. I don't know how they know these things, but it seems experts can tell. Doubtless he did this because if he's pointed the gun at his daughter, Emma would have grown herself at him and fought like a tigress to protect her precious child.

With a gun he doesn't need to get near enough for her to even try to stop hi; he can cause life=changing damage even if he doesn't fire a death-dealing shot; and he can do it it a heartbeat.

The only people who need guns are farmers and gamekeepers, serving forces personnel, and police armed response units. Any other weapons eg gun clubs, should be held in the appropriate clubhouse in a secure unit - not at anyone's home in a "secure" cabinet.

I don’t disagree - there are countless ways that guns make it easier to murder someone. I also agree he should never have been allowed one at the school.
but the real issue here is Mens violence, not the weapon of choice. Most men who kill their partners, do not use guns. They would not let the lack of a gun stop them murdering their partner.

Exactly. The poster you quote is using their own ignorance to try and take the moral high ground. It's as pathetic as it is supercilious.

My god you think she could have fought him and tried to live. Never. Do not comfort yourself with that. He didn't need a gun to kill them, all he needed was social opprobrium at divorce, a supine court system and the capacity to ruin her career. Even at the end she did not call the police, because of all these reasons.

Women who experience domestic violence and their children are stigmatized. There is pretend support. But they are treated as difficult reminders of male behaviour and thus, disregarded.

Jesus wept.

I'm saying the opposite @LexMitior

Posted too soon. Don't put words into my mouth. I know from horrible traumatic experience how vulnerable women can be in their own homes even without guns. But let's not pretend guns don't make women even more vulnerable. It doesn't have to be a dichotomous debate.

Women who experience domestic violence and their children are stigmatized. There is pretend support. But they are treated as difficult reminders of male behaviour and thus, disregarded.*
Yes. This is what my DC and I experienced

Women who experience domestic violence and their children are stigmatized. There is pretend support. But they are treated as difficult reminders of male behaviour and thus, disregarded.

I do completely agree with this description
And would add to that the fact that we cannot keep our children safe if we leave a DV relationship. The family courts push for contact for children even when there is clear evidence of abuse (police and medical reports). I thought I had escaped with my children only to find they were now more vulnerable than before