Another child killed by a dog

[NeverTrustAPoliceman]

Breaking news now. When is this going to stop?

Rip little one.

Is this a joke? If not then I'll explain. No-one is seriously expecting babies to look out for "signals when a dog's not happy". They are advising that the parents and adults around the children and dog become clued up on the dog signals.

My dog is a greyhound so she is a lot taller than toddlers etc anyway. A toddler will also have more teeth than her... my dog being elderly and all.
She just goes out her her walk and checks her pee-mails. She is on the lead a lot of the time anyway.
Like I said.. we walk past a child who is scared... my dog is on a lead and gives zero fucks about the kid. What else can I do? Do you want me to to kick my dog and yeet her miles away so some kid is not scared by her mere presence?

The difference is that the sole purpose of a gun is to kill.

The main reason US gun owners state for wanting them is that "bad people have a gun so I want to be able to kill the bad people with a gun if they come near me"

It's entirely different to dog ownership.

A more accurate comparison might be cars. It's my right to have one, it's bad drivers that are the problem, and you can't take away something I enjoy. In 2021, 1608 people were killed and 26,701 seriously injured in the UK in road traffic collisions (source) and yet we accept this as collateral damage for the convenience of easy travel.

Out of dogs and car drivers, I know which is more likely to kill or maim your child.

There’s already a few banned breeds, what’s the argument against adding a few more onto the list? Those ‘XL bullies’ and whatever else is massive and aggressive.

@FloydPepper I was also thinking about gun control in the UK and how it the country willingly gave up firearms in order to keep the children (and everyone really ) of this country safe and no doubt our country is better for it, in so many ways that we couldnt even have realised we would be back then. How the world has changed since. Sadly we won't see this collective good happen when it comes to dog safety.

So what IS the purpose of a dog? why to normal suburban families need a dog? Cars at least have a purpose.

Poor sweet child, it makes me feel sick to think of the absolute terror and pain she must have felt.

I'm a dog lover. Adore dogs, always have. I have two dogs that are considered very "family friendly" typically, and I still spent countless hours training and working with them to ensure I have as close to total control as possible. They're never off lead in public, only in hired dog exercise fields or our own fields at home, and despite being beautiful friendly creatures they've been muzzle trained since puppyhood and always muzzled when out - as they're a hunting breed it's absolutely necessary no matter how soppy they are on the sofa at home. They're literally trained to lie on the ground with their heads on their paws if approached by a child or given the appropriate command to do so. I would happily pay for pro training and licensing, it boils my blood that people have these brutish bully monstrosities with no training, no idea of breed traits and characteristics, no control. They give dog owners a bad name.

If you type “xl bully uk” into google you’ll see just how easy it is to buy one.

She has been both on and off lead. She is on lead when it is getting dark as she struggles to see. In the day, off lead but she still stays close and pretty much just sniffs every blade of grass and checks her pee-mails.

Agree with this...strong parallels.
Maybe we can perhaps make a distinction between regular pet dogs and certain very powerful, predatory & aggressive dogs?
I recognize that dogs & humans have co existed for aeons, but imo we have let the dogs have too much sway, they should serve & subordinate themselves to humans. I think one problem is that humans readily become emotionally attached to dogs and genuinely dont see them objectively, that's partly how the most dangerous get past some people's radar
Why wouldn't a licensing scheme work? The revenue raised could be used to employ dog wardens, mind you who'd want to have to deal with animals that dangerous?! Or would there be enough people who like working with dogs to fill the roles?

One measure that could be taken would be to ban the sale and rehoming of dogs (and all animals) on selling sites such as Gumtree, Pets4Homes, Preloved, etc. Animals should only be available from approved sources such as registered breeders, rescues, or rehoming services. So many dogs re passed from home to home with no consideration about whether they're suitable for their new home/owners, what their past history is, and their welfare.

To help enforce it there should be a system whereby the public can report unauthorised sales/rehoming and can report concerns about dogs that are aggressive. Local authorities and police should have powers to seize such dogs, assess them, and then either issue a penalty (e.g., a fine), destroy the animal, rehome somewhere more suitable, or return it to the owners.

This could be funded by a license fee for dog ownership and the (hefty) fines collected. Yes, dishonest owners just wouldn't get a license but thats life, no measure will have 100% compliance, however actually enforcing regulations would deter a lot of them and it would reduce the numbers.

How the hell is a child that’s just getting to grips with the world going to have the capacity to learn about dog behaviour. I’m so sick of hearing about when dogs kill or hurt a child or a baby it’s always turned round on the kid that’s been the victim.

It’s nothing to do with children, children don’t own these dogs. It’s owners. Half the time you can’t even ask them to get their dogs off you and your kid because the only thing they can respond with is “he’s/she’s friendly”

One of the banned breeds is "pit bull type" which is a broad definition. It's tested by - quite literally - a measuring tape - and isn't a particularly well written piece of legislation because a labrador x staffie can be deemed a banned pit bull, and there have been cases where some puppies from the same litter are deemed pit bull types and put down, while others go on to live normal lives.

However, these XL Bullies would almost certainly meet the tape measure definition of a pit bull type, and indeed they are closely related to the pit bull - they're basically mostly pit bull with a few other bull breeds thrown in.

I would happily see them proactively shutting down the breeders of these dogs, and neutering the lot of them (+ assessment by a behaviourist). I don't know if you saw the recent Panorama episode, but honestly the breeders of these dogs are bad news on multiple fronts.

Unfortunately that argument falls down because it’s pretty impossible to live, work, get food and take care of children and family needs outside of a city without a car. The way our infrastructure is set up has made it so. They are an essential to modern living.
A dog most defiantly is not an essential for the vast majority of people (with the exception on disability dogs of course)

Yeah cars is also a good comparison. Hence why car ownership is licenced, you have to pass a test, there’s an established mechanism for punishing those who misuse it. it’s policed. The licence holder is ultimately responsible, has to adhere to strict rules, and can go to prison for breaking them.

perhaps we should be talking about dog tests and licences, strict rules about having and “using” them in public, and owner responsibility?

My son has been afraid of dogs for a few years after we were out walking and a large dog off the lead came bounding up to him and jumped up on him. He’s been to a class for a few months to overcome his fear and he did improve, but when we’re out in public spaces he has setbacks because of owners who don’t care or have no control over their dogs. Recently an owner just stood about 10 metres away from us as his pretty large dog ran around my son and I. My son had done all the things that the dog trainer had said to do to not attract the dog’s attention and to stay calm, but eventually my son could see it wasn’t working and began to scream. The owner just stood watching. Never called to the dog. Almost looked bored. Someone else eventually managed to coax the dog, by pulling it by the collar, over to his owner. The owner- a man in his sixties- stood there watching and said, “I’ve never heard of anyone being frightened of dogs before.” 🙄

Currently on Gumtree is a 2yr old XL Bully for rehoming. £250 and she's all yours. She's being rehomed because their family is growing but the seller assures us in the advert that she is "soft as hell" and "has a giddy temperment".

A dog most defiantly is not an essential for the vast majority of people
agree, it's in the leisure/hobby category, something you have for your own amusement or entertainment, but so often the downsides, (dog mess, killings, general nuisance ) are outsourced and spoil the outdoors for the rest of us

I am single and live alone. My dog is my family and is vital to my mental health.
That is the purpose my dog.

Gumtree ads for pets should be banned. The owner should be taking their dog to a rescue to make sure they are properly assessed and end up in a suitable home.

Ah yes, because driving licences are such a panacea...

Dog licencing is often talked about as if it will fix everything - but the last time we had dog licences in this country it was just a small tax and most people didn't pay it, rather similar to the TV licence today.

If there was a system involving

• pre-dog theory training - things like choosing the right breed for you and your family, diets, canine body language, learning theory, etiquette and so on. Pass that and you get a provisional licence and can buy a dog. You'd need a catch-up option for those getting a dog through unusual paths (elderly parent goes into a care home and you adopt their dog, for instance).
• post-dog-acquisition training - puppy classes, modified versions for adult rescue dogs, and one-to-one sessions for those that don't cope in a group environment. Get through that and you get your full dog licence.

... then actually I think that would be an excellent idea.

But there would be practical issues in making it happen - a shortage of properly qualified dog trainers being the first barrier. A lack of village halls willing to allow dog training classes to happen in there (this is a surprisingly big headache for dog trainers, believe it or not). Unscrupulous breeders willing to sell a dog to someone without a provisional dog licence. Enforcement when someone gets the dog and doesn't bother with the training sessions after that. etc.

But the principle could be a good one.

To be fair, the welfare of the dog is also a consideration not relevant for cars or guns

Love dogs snd have one myself.

In my opinion dogs should be leashed In all public places and spaces and only free In their own fenced gardens. I know this would not have prevented this tragedy but equally you should never ever leave any child under 12 alone with a dog.

It is not your family. It's a dog. This attitude to dogs in the UK is extremely problematic. There are better ways to deal with mental health issues.

a shortage of properly qualified dog trainers being the first barrier
mandatory service in the dogs brigade should be a condition of ownership, if you want a dog you have to pay the price.
And dont say 'but children', children are part of human society, we need them to grow up so they can staff business and services, keep things running, contribute to the public good etc. Dogs, except a (relatively small number of) working dogs, do not