Has a man dressed as a woman ever come into a communal changing room with you or joined a specifically female group you belong to ?

[Rilkescat]

How common is it ? Not really referring to stories in the media but for everyday women on MN. FWIW I've never met a trans person that I know of, neither professionally or socially. I'm a HCP so meet alot of members of the public. None of my kids have friends that are trans nor do my friends have children that are either.
Loads of trans threads at the moment. No problem with that but just wondered if it really is that prevalent ?
Before I get flamed I'm not in favour of biological womens' safe spaces being open to biological men but equally I don't think that all trans people, especially trans women are necessarily sexually deviant or mentally ill.

People choosing not to attend something because of someones presence (who has frankly done nothing wrong) is a terrible argument and that would leave many people open to discrimination.

Women choosing not to attend rape crisis centres because of the presence of male bodied people is discriminatory

Women not having smear tests because the female nurse is male bodied is discriminatory

Women becoming pregnant, being sexually assaulted, raped in prison by male bodied 'women' is discriminatory

Think it through. Because all of the above and more are happening right now, here in the UK!

But it doesn't affect all women, only the ones who are bothered by it. Which is all of MN, but not much of the real world

You can't possibly know this. And you don't get to speak for me.

I've played football in the same team as a transwoman. So we've been to the lockeroom several times changing. All our games are quite local so we don't shower and therefore don't get completely naked so I don't know how she handles that.

I was in a lingerie changing cubicle in John Lewis. As I left, the person in front of me was definitely a man in women's clothing. He was tall with huge hands and feet and when he turned to me, he was obviously XY. I didn't feel unsafe but after he had left, I told the assistant that I felt it was inappropriate that a trans person should be in a woman's changing room. She felt the same.
I know that only a few trans are a danger to women, but they are NOT women. Perhaps the solution should be a changing room especially for trans people.....

"People choosing not to attend something because of someones presence (who has frankly done nothing wrong) is a terrible argument and that would leave many people open to discrimination."

Bit demoralising given we spend huge amounts of public money to encourage 50% of the population to access sports, to just accept that many will have to drop out because the presence of a tiny minority will make it impossible for them to continue.

And you are massively presumptive with the assumption they've done nothing wrong. They already have, by accessing (and therefore destroying) single sex spaces.

No. However, about half of both my daughters' friends identify as trans or non-binary and use a different name from their birth name. Many are using breast binders and hoping to seek hormone treatment and surgery. There has been a huge increase in numbers of teenage girls (proven scientifically to be prone to social contagion) claiming to be trans. This is not a tiny number of people, it's increasing daily and is even more prevalent vulnerable teens with other mental health issues such as autism, adhd, tourettes, depression, anorexia and so one.

Toilets. Once wee splashed over seat I had to quickly clean it up as was desperate rush. Another time wee on floor too much to avoid stepping on I actually looked to see if they had a dog with them. Of course that time it may have been a previous user but why would you not warn the next user as you exited the cubicle was my initial thought then realised the only prints were mine.

Not in change rooms, although I have to share lavatories at work, but yes, to groups that should be women-only. It really changes the atmosphere (and not for the better)

You make such assumptions about me.

I have been a victim of male violence. I’ve been indecently exposed to - in a public park, I’m broad daylight - not by someone using a female space if that makes any difference. I’ve been sexually assaulted in two different circumstances. I’ve been in an abusive relationship which I left. Happy now? Am I allowed to have an opinion now?

I am hiding the thread now as I’m so sick of having to defend myself.

From the OP:
I don't think that all trans people, especially trans women are necessarily sexually deviant or mentally ill.

Women’s rights defenders are not making this argument either. You clearly haven’t been paying attention to their arguments.

The essential point is that changing laws and policies to allow males entry to single-sex spaces only benefits a small proportion of males. It makes a much larger number of women uncomfortable and there is also a greater risk of voyeurism and physical harm to women. No-one is saying it is necessarily a high risk, but WHY should women tolerate any increase in risk?

To expect women to do so is to say that the feelings of a small special group of males are much more important than the feelings and physical safety of a much larger number of women, and if some women have to experience the collateral damage of sexual assault, so be it.

We are expected to upend the whole way our society is organised and the way it operates, even our language, in order to assuage the feelings of these males. If that’s not the patriarchy in action, I don’t know what is.

My final point is that the laws were originally formulated specifically to help a small number of trans people, those with extreme discomfort with their bodies (gender dysphoria). Then came the push to include a much larger group of males. These are mostly cross-dressers, males who are sexually motivated. There is now no differentiation between the two groups which may explain why statistics show that males in prison who identify as women are considerably more likely to be sex offenders than other males.

Yes I swim at a local hotel pool a few times a week. Another regular is a trans woman. I see her every week. The nature of swimwear tells me she has had full reassignment surgery. She's very nice, very accepted by the other members. Initially I felt a bit unsure but in all honesty I feel entirely comfortable in her presence.

No, thank goodness. But it's horrible to know that it could easily happen and the only I could do is self exclude.

I know several trans identified people socially and they're fine, happy to be with them in mixed sex social scenario even though I don't see them as women. I leave the conversation or inwardly roll my eyes if they start wanging on about their transitions or womanly experiences but they're welcome to their own beliefs of course and happily capable of talking about other things. We can have a good time together at a party or whatever. If it's a scenario where I'm happy for men to be there I don't generally care whether they are very special men or not. I wouldn't go swimming with them though and I admit I keep them at arms length because I know I'm a heretic in their religion.

This is the kind of thing that makes me facepalm and roll my eyes. Such a predictable comment and horribly sexist. 80 year old woman doesn't want to be in a loo with a transgender person. That. Is. Her. Right. I am so sick of this bullshit.

We are on MN. My comment still stands 🙂

So basically women's safety, dignity and privacy is of no relevance because it's their choice to feel like that? Wow, that's quite the argument @IWineAndDontDine

Next you'll be saying women who get sexually assaulted on nights out are asking for it.

Yes to both, at work (large FS company), an email was sent around to make it explicit inclusion was expected. Tw in question dressed highly inappropriately (short skirts, very high heels and tight tops). Also had my nose broken in a netball match by a TW (an accident but not sure the same severity of injuries would have been the result if a bio woman).

Kind of - a transwoman brought to a Swish one evening by a local friend. A swish (clothes swap) is not specifically a women's group so I guess it doesn't really count, but are always women only. These events locally used to take place in a big hall with lots of space and screens but this particular one was in a smaller room with everyone packed in. They stood at the door and watched without joining in and it felt pretty uncomfortable. I can well believe tbh that they were uncomfortable too and would have benefited from us deliberately including them more actively, but we didn't- we don't normally have to, people just join in and start looking at the clothes and conversation starts that way.

it was the young vic. I’ve now heard those toilets are completely mixed sex

🙄 it's also quite the argument saying people feel uncomfortable around others through no fault of their own so they shouldn't be welcome. I've already said there are many good arguments against TW in female spaces, imo that is not one of them.

I used to attend regional meetings involving domestic violence and sexual abuse organisations and services. There was a transwoman involved in one charity who used the Ladies. Never bothered me, not the first time I'd seen a transwoman in the Ladies, and if I'm honest a few of us were a bit smug and self-satisfied about how inclusive and cool we were. I changed my mind completely when we had an event involving service users, including older women and Muslim domestic abuse survivors and saw the impact on them. I realised it wasn't my place to consent on their behalf and that my female socialisation was not helping me be a strong advocate for the rights of the women we were working with. It's all very well us empowered right-on women showing off how 'inclusive' we are. Many other women don't have our privilege and confidence. We should put our more vulnerable sisters - any women in fact - before the hurt feelings of men who wish they were female.

Seems to me that many transwomen are terrified of using male facilities, but women should never be terrified of what transwomen are capable of in women's facilities.

When at a bar in Amsterdam a trans woman came into the female toilets whilst I was in there. I can’t think of any other times that I have noticed a transwoman in a female space, although am not usually looking that closely.

I don’t belong to any female-only groups so never been in a position where a transwoman could join. There are two transmen at my workplace and no gender neutral toilets, one uses the male toilets and the other the female toilets.

Never to either. There is a trans man at work, uses the male toilets.
I don't have an issue - of the 0.3% people who are trans, the oens who are subverting it for some kink or upsetting others are a far smaller number.
Compare to the % of the 50% actual men engaged in inappropriate activities - get your knickers in a twist over this instead is all I can say!

As for encountering trans people - yes of course, it's 2023 and I'm quite posh so I know quite a few trans and nonbinary people. I know quite a lot of people generally, they aren't a separate species.

Sorry you’ve been sexually assaulted, I would imagine most people on this thread have been.
It’s unfortunately very common.

@SpongeBobJudgeyPants the probability is the exact opposite I’m afraid.