OMFG Children being kidnapped from Home Office Hotel

[MorelloKisses]

Children kidnapped from Home Office hotel

"A whistleblower, who works for Home Office, describes children being abducted off the street outside the hotel and bundled into cars".

How is this not top news story?? Those poor children.

If people want boats to stop and say why aren’t they I’ve said look to Australia to see what it takes.

People seem to want them to stop but without doing anything close to the same.

Why are they so convinced their softer actions will actually stop the gang leaders trafficking people to work here?

We’ll probably get various actions and boats will keep coming and people will say why don’t they stop it on and on

It goes back to whether families are being threatened at home. If they are how will you stop the 17 year old being picked up to stop the threats?

I recall asking why people went along with this and gangs succeed due to threats. Not something I’d choose to be near but if you are willing still how would you resolve the threat to family issue?

The only thing that will reduce gangs trafficking people here is having a more effective system for combatting modern slavery, organised crime gangs (feel a bit AC12 saying that!) and both cross-border and in-country trafficking. But that’s a massive ask for a country/police force that’s on its knees due to austerity.

I don’t think suddenly aiming for zero crossings is realistic or doable in the near future, but reducing the boat crossings by setting up safe routes and cracking down on trafficking gangs is better than doing nothing, or doing whatever the government’s doing now. Baby steps, to aim for zero in the future.

You can’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

If in the process of pushing boats back someone ended up in the water, what should be done about it?

I’m not an expert so don’t expect great ideas here, (as usual 😁) but one thing that isn’t working is criminalising the victims of trafficking when they come forward (usually for immigration offences), as can happen now. The criminal gangs use this as an effective threat to prevent trafficking victims going to the police.

What’s needed is a system where the trafficking victim can go to the authorities with confidence that their immigration status won’t be used against them. Then you can use the victim’s testimony to track and hopefully arrest/prosecute at least some part of the criminal operation. In theory.

As for preventing threats/harm to the family back in Albania, that would need cooperation with the Albanian authorities and knowing who/where those specific threats were in Albania, whether the family /community there were supportive or whether you were now seen as “bringing shame” and unable to return home. That’s the much more complicated part, and even more powerful at keeping the trafficking victims from going to the police.

What do you think would be effective?

Well Gerald I’m glad you asked 😬

(just joking I know you’re not a man called Gerald just going with the vibe)

I read your post re trafficking stopping at borders and how many people that you know have created support structures for those traumatised by the passage. And that is was a separate category. I could see why that works and I think it’s happened long enough for a fair bit to be in place.

For people under threat of violence it throws up difficulties that are hard to break. The gangs sound violent and pretty scary all round to me and I’d expect the reason Albanians of any age are moving on quickly from accommodation pretty quickly is because they fear something happening.

Whether that threat would also stop them letting the police know here idk but it’s a possibility. Whatever you have arranged to stop your family being hurt is going to impact behaviour whether you are 16 / 17 or 21.

I think it’s taking hold here and I’d go pretty hard line meaning back to the safe country of Albania. I know it’s hardline but it would be effective.

Phew, I thought my alter ego as a pedantic old man had been discovered 😁

I think it’s taking hold here and I’d go pretty hard line meaning back to the safe country of Albania. I know it’s hardline but it would be effective.

I really understand this sentiment, and it would stop it being the UK’s problem, but unfortunately it’s only likely to stop it being the UK’s problem temporarily. People - especially young people - who’ve been trafficked are at high risk of re-trafficking when they return home.

Children and young people in Albania who are most at risk of trafficking don’t tend to have stable, “safe” home lives, with risk factors like:

poverty, low education, suffering physical or mental disabilities, domestic violence and/or sexual abuse within the family or a pre-existing blood feud, being LGBT and for children, being Roma or Egyptian or homeless.

Different and Equal outlined that the majority of young male victims of trafficking they have assisted came from unstable or abusive family backgrounds. In some cases, the unstable family background led to homelessness, which frequently led ‘quite directly’ to being trafficked.

More info in the link but it’s pretty long.

www.gardencourtchambers.co.uk/news/albanian-boys-and-young-men-the-risk-of-trafficking-and-re-trafficking-on-return

If there’s not a stable home to return to, if you don’t have money, and if there’s also cultural “baggage” like being trafficked has brought shame on your family, it really works against people being able to settle back into their country/community and increases the risk of being re-trafficked, and they end up potentially back in the UK.

One other unhelpful factor is that the Albanian authorities often refuse to see men and boys as the victims of crime, so don’t often offer trafficking victims protection from criminal gangs. (This may be improving, and there is more support for women, albeit largely charity based instead of official.)

Frustratingly, a lot of the change needs to happen within Albania, and while there are charities doing fantastic work, it’s not yet widespread enough.

@BewareTheLibrarians "The government has done such a good job of demonising asylum seekers that lots of people seem to think all Albanians are criminals"

Very easy to blame the government.

If people think a change of government would be a 'magic bullet' they are labouring under a misconception.

Many of us are still waiting for a concrete plan from Labour. I wrote to my (Labour) MP about it and the erudite response was 'it's fair to say that the government have "lost it"'. Hmmmm.

The following condensed from Red Pepper Magazine (my italics, brackets and parentheses).

In 2022 an American law professor who is on Starmer’s payroll as a strategic adviser, recently published a pamphlet setting out a new plan for immigration for Labour. It distinctly lacks any substantial policy suggestions but is heavy on Starmerite rhetoric of ‘social contracts’, ‘prosperity’, ‘security’ and ‘community’. It does not mention measures that will be brought in by the Nationality and Borders Bill, such as the criminalisation of refugees who arrive via ‘illegal means’ in the UK.
On safe and legal routes, he advocates for a prioritisation of women and children and emergency schemes for conflicts, rather than universal support for all refugees. [This begs the question if "Safe and Legal Routes were the panacea for all ills, why hasn't Labour pushed this concept as a vote winner?"]
The document proposes ‘consultations’ and ‘reviews’ that would allow Labour to avoid any firm commitments. His proposals remain firmly within the framing of immigration and asylum as a ‘challenge’ to be ‘tackled’ and does not speak from the perspective of migrant communities or their needs.

Starmer’s ‘social contract’ is not one of equals entering into an agreement, as those in the liberal political tradition would want us to believe. Rather it is a set of obligations for immigrant communities who, if they do not comply, are not awarded basic rights.
In Brook’s pamphlet, an example of this approach is for example the automatic refusal of permanent residency or citizenship for those convicted of a hate crime or sexual offence.

Labour continues its beaten path: immigrant communities are seen as a group that need to be controlled and managed, for the greater good of a society from which they are essentially excluded. Their needs and desires are not acknowledged by policymakers, and neither are they taken seriously as a constituency of voters in society.
Those who hoped that a Labour victory might see the country turn its back on Tory-style immigration politics might once again be bitterly disappointed.

Beware of what you wish for.......

I know you have connections do many in working with the other category of trafficking and you want people to arrive here and be supported but on Albania I think any country that is naive to organised crime being set up is mad.

We are generally giving people in the U.K. and being so welcoming is a nice trait except when it allows gangs to thrive.

A quick google on ‘Albanian mafia’ brings many articles but as posters will not appreciate any right wing media I’ve linked The Guardian

amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/13/kings-of-cocaine-albanian-mafia-uk-drugs-crime

and outside UK
albaniandailynews.com/news/albanian-mafia-among-three-most-dangerous-in-europe-italian-prosecutor-1
from Italian perspective

I’d not risk allowing it to take hold further and allow people to apply from Albania but return people to do so.

There may be issues with poverty in Albania driving success there for gangs plus corruption at state level but trying to fix that by taking people and using police resources here as a kind of proxy is madness imo.

You are quite right. Using police resources to combat crime is maddness. Much better to defund the police as the government has done for the past 12 years. That way you can break any manner of laws while Prime Minister and it doesn't count.

You still respond to each of my posts even when I’ve said I’m not interested

Are you like this irl when people stop engaging with you too

It’s weird behaviour and I’d take a break from following my posts to this extent.

@MarshaBradyo "There may be issues with poverty in Albania driving success there for gangs plus corruption at state level but trying to fix that by taking people and using police resources here as a kind of proxy is madness imo."

I could not agree more.

There is now a worrying trend of boat arrivals (those with all-male occupants) forming "flash-mobs" to overpower police resources. It will only be a matter of time before these "flash-mobs" arm themselves and we have running battles on the beaches either involving the police or local vigilante groups.

Locals have had enough.

albaniandailynews.com/news/albanian-migrant-teen-caught-in-uk-after-asking-to-use-woman-s-phone

I have no idea what the solution is. If none of our politicians can devise a plan I'm sure no-one on this forum can.

The Labour opposition have got a plan that involves funding the home office and border officials in order to deal with the issue, plus establish proper application processes to reduce demand for cross-channel routes.

The conservative government have no plan because they are living in a dream world where talking tough and photo.ops are all you need.

What will they do to deal with organised gang issue specifically? Eg boats from Albania is it to turn them back or something else

@watchfulwishes "The Labour opposition have got a plan that involves funding the home office and border officials in order to deal with the issue, plus establish proper application processes to reduce demand for cross-channel routes."

Sorry but that's bollocks incorrect.

Haven't you read my post of 04.27? I have quoted the Labour Party's Policy document on this issue and that is not mentioned. If you have such information, please post it.

All that Labour can come up with is a load of froth that says a lot but means nothing.

If they want to increase the Home Office Budget it has to either come from cuts elsewhere or they need to raise taxation. Both would be about as popular with the electorate as a turd in a swimming pool.
(Or maybe someone has discovered Corbyn's Magic Money Tree?).

"The conservative government have no plan because they are living in a dream world where talking tough and photo.ops are all you need."
That's just a very silly statement that has no basis in fact.

This is what happens to those who don't "Toe the line". The tentacles of the Albanian drugs lords are everywhere.

If this doesn't act as a deterrent to illegal immigrants, I don't know what will.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/police-identify-body-man-found-21179891

These are just the "tip of the iceberg" ;

uk.style.yahoo.com/albanian-gang-members-killed-23-150235082.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJ0R2rZtkDNeNIfSHkEme84_IU0locLZwy8wiCsDkD3eRK87ifWNri_-w3H_USHtNW69Uf6H4R0yHyVmRhergmpu-XdUNRW2Qbs3uOjGllVWnC28nM2wrjE4PB9xyBrxfbUYava_wWLqpfIeYA4ISEPOlpYUVBPqGB-i2-a8mFSl

Well listening to R4 Labour now on this and they’ve answered not much will change in action, just vague words on more money.

If anyone reads up on crime gangs we’re facing and violence used to coerce or people choose to join it sounds nicely woolly and ineffective.

This isn’t what asylum is for, the above is a feature in many lesser developed countries.

@MarshaBradyo and @MintyFreshOne I will politely point you both to my final sentence which states that a lot of the change needs to happen within Albania itself. That’s not me stating that it’s the UK’s responsibility to fix the entire problem, is it?

However, as @jgw1 correctly says, the UK have to prevent crime happening within the UK. As with many types of crime, that involves working with and sharing intelligence with overseas agencies and governments.

Again. Me pointing out the complex issues within Albania and how trafficking and re trafficking happens is not me saying that we should offer asylum to every single person from poverty stricken countries. It’s me describing a complex problem that many people understandably don’t have a clear knowledge of.

This determination that anyone who doesn’t think we need to close our borders/stop all the boats/doesn’t think asylum seekers are all “criminal young men” is a delusional liberal lefty who wants open borders for anyone from every country is a) hyperbolic and untrue, and b) gets in the way of proper discussion that at least lets people have the facts, even if they don’t agree with the outcome.

Was that before or after the programme where the presenter described teenage Albanian boys as being “willingly trafficked” and basically victim blamed the victims of trafficking? I can see how some
listeners (not anyone here, but a certain section of the public) would have found that a good listen as it absolves them of having to worry about the missing children/teenagers.

Unfortunately it’s factually incorrect and morally, as the kids say, “well dodgy”.

As for Labour, (and thanks to the pp who posted the info about labour above) it is disappointing to me how timid they’re being with policies they put forward. A lot of things seem very Tory-lite, which will appeal to a lot of voters, but there needs to be more clarity on other policies like immigration.

Very happy though to see Starmer supporting safe routes and prioritising women, children and families. That’s not me saying that single men don’t need asylum before anyone starts 😁 but the government currently makes it near impossible for women and children to come to safety and that’s abhorrent.

I’d still have more confidence in Labour to sort this out than this Conservative government, who have had years to fix this and have just come up with one increasing batshit policy after the other, while funnelling billions of pounds into private companies via asylum accommodation, rather than putting those billions into local communities where it would have benefitted everyone.

(Yes, I’m not letting that one go. £billions that was denied to communities like the ones in Kent who are having to deal with the majority of asylum seekers,
and some people will still blame the asylum seekers rather than the government.)

He used both - those who choose to come and those coerced.

Labour were woeful. They are very weak in this. As I said I’d be hardline on stopping the violent crime getting here to start with.

Not easy but the alternative is vast amounts of tax payer money to try to fix gang crime spreading from Albania to U.K. and Europe. It’s a never ending pot and attempting to fix it by allowing it to flourish first just by being present is not a good way to go.

Labour were woeful. They are very weak in this. As I said I’d be hardline on stopping the violent crime getting here to start with.

I wish the Conservatives had been, and we wouldn’t be in this position now - especially as they were warned that this would be a consequence of their policies by the Foreign Affairs Committee back in 2020. This article is a couple of years old, but makes for interesting reading. Highlights:

The government was warned nine months ago that its own policies were “pushing migrants to take more dangerous routes” across the English Channel in an official report by MPs, it can be revealed amid a surge in boat crossings.

“A policy that focuses exclusively on closing borders will drive migrants to take more dangerous routes, and push them into the hands of criminal groups,” the report said.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/channel-crossings-migrants-priti-patel-boris-johnson-boats-france-a9663826.html?amp

I’d separate Albanian crime gangs as it’s a particular issue - which is why most people leaving accommodation are Albanian.

The Labour person was asked about safe routes it seems not much will be changed in any direction. Just the usual fluff we will fund.. yeh there’s a problem there. We can’t fix gang crime flourishing in Albania and very much spreading throughout Europe.

This thread should be focussed on Albanian issue and on that it should be a return to the safe country and apply from there.

Other issues are too broad to include as they differ, other countries will not be in same category. If you want safe routes I didn’t hear Labour say yes to that.

I take it you agree with the contents of my post then?