Thread 4 - TalkExiles: "The Planet Goes On Being Round"

[Kucinghitam]

Continuation of previous lifeboat threads 1 & 2 & 3.

Gather here all ye refugees from the JTT Flat Earth Society, welcome to the reassuringly oblate spheroid of MN! Ye all already know the answers to the questions "How the heck do I format my post?" "Why can't I edit my typos?" "What do those acronyms mean?" and most importantly, "Where is everybody that I used to know?"

So really we're all here just to chat randomly.

It's all right, BN. We know you're not Grant Shaps.

I admit I still look over there even though I don't post. It's not just a car crash, it's a total motorway pile up with car crashes all over the shop. Like I said previously, I will never tell women how to do feminism but yikes! that complete blanking of the Wi Spa news was something to behold. Similarly, trying to have a conversation about the massive news that Westminster is planning to scupper the Scottish Bill without getting to the heart of what the Bill is about, it's embarrassing. I am so looking forward to what the new improved admins come up with in terms of what can and cannot be dicsussed going forward.

I don't care what they say or don't say. I haven't looked on the threads you're talking about, I've looked in on the snooker thread once or twice. But it's moribund, that's clear to see.

It doesn't surprise me Pike. I assume they all still read the Guardian and, bless them, think it's still a newspaper.

Even the police rapist thread is a tediously competitve diacussion about how the Met sbould be abolished rather than a wider discussion on how a man went to extraordinary lengths to use his job and position to abuse and control women and his colleagues looked the other way.

The other interesting point which no one there had picked up on is he was also convices under new coercive control laws. Which is "good" as it means this new law is being used.

Damnation, you all made me curious and I went to have a look. And goodness, it's quite stark isn't it? On the Fauxminism thread, the Scotland thread, etc. The chilling effect of the imbibed heresy rules.

A once proud board where we could discuss anything at all. It still rankles.

It really upsets me. Particularly that some good friends on there simply won't countenance any discussion.

Because that board, its predecessor and the people on it have been a huge and lovely part of my life for well over 20 years.

I miss my peoples from there, but to be fair I hadn't really been participating much in my chat threads lately anyway. I returned to WDYDLN as a prodigal, just as this was all happening. I didn't want to get involved in any of the angst and recriminations, so I decided to call it a day and just quietly leave.
I'm still in touch with a good few on the facebooks, including people who left a long time ago for various reasons.

I feel the same, squeaky.

The thread that chilled me was the one that briefly touched on this subject, then rapidly reached a consensus of be nice and let the children instruct the older generation.

I could just see the golden haired boy singing
i Tomorrow Belongs To Me.

Those youngsters are being so badly let down by their ostrich adults.

btw, usually I never compare anything to 1930s Europe, because it's disprespectful and self indulgent to do so, but we are getting a clear demonstration of how theory-driven totalitarianism seizes power by denying facts, and changing language, and forbidding any discussion of its actions.

oooops! used other place formatting, and guess what, it doesn't work here.

not having an edit function is annoying. But also useful at times.

I feel quite sad that it's over, it was a really good thing once, from GUT to JTT. There are people I had a lot of respect for, who've revealed themselves as unpleasant and dishonest, or suddenly lacking in critical thinking. Not to mention some of the pile ons.

@BezMills and I are in a similar situation. My husband still posts there regularly but on a very limited number of threads and hasn't really encountered the attitudes that drove me away. I'm finding Mumsnet fills my online chat needs mostly, though I do miss some of the whimsy that featured so much when it was GUT.

It's the 'lack of critical thinking' ones that make me saddest. I always knew some specific posters were unpleasant or dishonest, but I used to think one of the distinguishing points of that board was that almost everyone else was intelligent and willing to engage in honest examination of ideas.

I still believe most of them can think, so am deeply dispointed that so many of them don't.

There are some individuals I miss, but I don't feel the draw to go back any more. Too depressing.

I noticed that @DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry the conclusion was "our children are so much nicer and inclusive than we were/are" Which to a certain extent is true, but it doesn't mean that they re always right. Children/teens can be very narrow minded prigs at times - I certainly remember I had fits of that.

To be honest for me it is only partly THAT issue that made me leave, I am interested in current affairs and social issues and the increasingly narrow age range and social background of posters there has made a lot of debate moribund. A recent example was a thread on government plans to encourage over 50s back in to the workplace. The majority of the thread was dedicated to boomers musing on how it is rubbish working after your fifties and early retirement is, in their experience, so much nicer. Looking at that from the POV of a early millennial who experienced high house prices, student debt and state an workplace pension reforms (altogether I am much better off than people younger than me) it was like a peak in to a vanished world - but they don't even realise it.

It's the complacency that gets me - that it's easier to demonise a group long-term community members as simply incapable of accepting difference rather than concede that there might be a genuine conflict that needs to be resolved fairly or that the people who worry about, for example, the steep rise in young women who identify as trans or non-binary may be more concerned about their well-being than intolerant of difference.

The line about children showing the way exemplifies this - although I didn't see that myself so am not sure of the context. Children don't have the life experience to navigate complex situations - being tolerant of difference is the easy part. Of course children growing up in diverse communities will be relaxed about difference. And hopefully they'd have next to no experience of the reality of male violence against women and girls. The also lack the processing skills to examine e.g. evidence for the effectiveness of puberty blockers or rates of detransition or interaction between trans identities and mental health outcomes. It's a complex set of phenomena and we are selling everyone short, including trans people, if we don't grapple with it. "Let people be who they are" doesn't even come close to what is needed.

increasingly narrow age range and social background of posters there has made a lot of debate moribund

IIRC in recent months somebody on the Other Place's family board mused that the Preg/Early Years thread had basically died a death because we had all gone past childbearing age.

WRT to the social/political thing - I think I mentioned that (it turns out, to my surprise!) that I've actually been a MNer for over a decade. However, I had been 99.99% a lurker for much of it.

The reason I became a more active MN poster was because of Brexit (!). The Other Place had almost everybody agreeing it was an utter shitshow (which was great for affirming my own feelings) but because of the near-universal agreement the discussions often took on a self-congratulatory air of non-analysis. On MN in 2016 there were posters who were fervent Leavers, who were on the fence, who were dedicated Remainers, plus some blatant xenophobes. Of course from one side there was mostly a whole bunch of triumphalist shitposting amid wails of faux-victimhood (sound familiar?!) but the genuine range of opinion also led to some amazingly intelligent analysis, proper debate and reams of data.

Children/teens in their narrow minded prig / moral certainty phase can be very vulnerable to groups that offer them affirmation. Power-hungry adults have made use of that for ever - see Hitler Youth and so many other groups of weaponised youngsters. Those crowds of very young protesters shouting down women depress me.

But hey, nicer than boring old us.

My friend's daughter (22, hair of blue) works at my local and I have all the time for her. Absolutely smashing young woman, I do not have a bad word to say about her. She's super connected to the whole thing (gestures vaguely at gender-trans-stuff) and I can (and do) ask her to explain things to me, because I don't know shit, frankly.

She's pan-romantic asexual homosexual (I think I got that right) and has a little They/Them badge she wears at work (little alehouse mostly inhabited by middle-aged to elder day-drinkers, which just makes it all the more adorable, that's by-the-by).

We don't agree on quite a few things, but I'm quite happy to not even raise things like JKR, as I think we are a bit too far apart for that discussion to bear fruit. The things I do give nudges about are body-acceptance and that sex-based stereotypes are a bag of oppressive wank.

My take on it is briefly this. I think it's absolutely grand that the kids are all talking to each other and finding ways to understand all these ways of being that my generation largely didn't ever figure out. I am far from convinced that absolutely everything that exists by concensus in her demographic will stand the test of time, but yanno, time will tell.

There are big areas where I, like most of you lot, have serious concerns (ROGD, teaching kids they are in the wrong body, loss of female-only single-sex facilities).

I agree Bez that it is great that younger people seem much more accepting of difference in sexuality and gender presentation that previous generations.

However I think "gender non conformity" was around in our day it was just packaged as part of a wider identity - usually the fashion or music you were in to. Plenty of boys in make up and earrings and girls in bovver boots and combats in my teen social circles but it was more indicative of your music tribe rather than and sexuality//gender ID.

I would also observe as a teen/young person expressing your personality via your dress/opinions/posters/music is seen as vitally imprortant and you take it very seriously (I think this is a really important part of teen development and workign out who you are). I remember being very serious about how non conformign my dress should be to the point I spend a good few weeks as a 14 year old seriously wearing odd shoes.

It is just out po-faced pronouncements and actions were not on social media for all to see or poured over and examined by adults in the media.

I spend a good few weeks as a 14 year old seriously wearing odd shoes.

😆