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What proportion of men who identify as women do you think have had an operation to remove their male genitals?

160 replies

ScrollingLeaves · 29/12/2022 13:27

Given that any man who identifies as a woman may legally be treated as a woman, join women’s sports, be housed in women's prisons, be in a women’s rape crisis centre, or be on a women’s hospital ward,

I am interested to know what other women reading here think about this question.

The reason for asking here, not on the Feminism and Women’s Rights/Gender board, Mumsnet HQ, is to find out what people think more generally. Please do not move it.

I am asking this out of interest in the wake of the Gender Recognition Reform Bill which has just been passed by Scottish Parliament.

OP posts:
MargaretMead · 01/01/2023 12:45

TWAW is a position of faith, not of logic, so there’s no reasoning with these people I’m afraid.

BenCoopersSupportWren · 02/01/2023 12:46

Anotherusernameanotheday · 29/12/2022 16:04

Is gender dysphoria a thing then ? Or just made up ?
Some of the comments on here strike me that some posters just don't like the idea of individuals changing gender in the same way that back in the day folk found gay people repulsive.
I agree that there should be protected spaces for biological females and trans women should not be allowed to participate in female sports before anyone flames me but some of the comments suggest a revulsion about trans people that goes beyond those things. Years ago gay people were accused of being as degenerate as paedophiles, luckily we've moved on.

This post is a classic example of what happens when you conflate, or allow to become conflated, the words “sex” and “gender”.

“Sex” is biological reality. It is not possible to change sex, no matter how many hormones are taken or how much surgery undergone. You are the sex capable or potentially capable of producing either a) large immobile gametes (female) or b) small mobile gametes (male).

Certain public spaces are sex-segregated because it has been recognised for a long time that the sexes have different needs, particularly when vulnerable, and as a sex class women are at risk from men as a sex class. This is based on biological differences; men are on average stronger, penises can and have been used as a weapon and so on. As a society, we recognised (until seemingly very recently) that as we cannot identify the predatory men from the respectful men, it is acceptable to exclude ALL men from spaces where women are vulnerable: public toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, rape/DV crisis shelters etc.

“Gender” meanwhile is a set of socially-constructed roles and stereotypes designed to prescribe how the two sexes should behave. They’re prescriptive and damaging to both sexes but particularly to women, as they seek to control female behaviour in ways that disadvantage us. Blue for boys / pink for girls, “boys don’t cry” / “that’s not very ladylike”, men are breadwinners / women are nurturing are all examples of gender stereotypes.

Nothing, other than the weight of society’s expectations (and I don’t underestimate how powerful that can be), prevents any of us from pushing back against gendered stereotypes. Once upon a time it was frowned upon for women to wear trousers, now it’s not even noteworthy. There is absolutely nothing preventing a man from wearing a dress, long hair, make up and calling himself a stereotypically female name if he so wishes. It does not make him female, or a woman; it makes him a gender non-conforming man, and more power to him. He should not be subject to harms for breaking gender norms, and he should certainly be safe to use men’s toilets, changing rooms etc no matter how femininely he chooses to present.

If other men are not capable of accepting feminine men in their spaces they need to become more tolerant, and if any of them behaved violently or abusively towards the GNC man then they should, as another PP said, be subject to criminal charges, just as they should if they attacked (verbally or physically) an elderly man, a gay man, a man with LDs, or any other vulnerable man using the male facilities.

(if you think that transgender men should be allowed to use women’s spaces because of a perceived fear of being harmed in men’s spaces but you aren’t extending the same invitation to those other vulnerable categories of men…why not?)

If a person is repulsed by their own sexed body, their genitalia and/or secondary sex characteristics, that would be better described as “body dysmorphia / dysphoria”, since “gender” is not a biological concept. And personally I do not feel that quite barbaric and experimental surgeries based on selling people the lie that they can change sex should be the treatment for anyone’s discomfort with their body, unless you also advocate for stapling the stomachs of people with anorexia and amputating the limbs of those with BIID.

I absolutely understand the various reasons why around 90%+ of men who present as women retain their penises. Sex is sex, gender is gender. Absolutely not the same thing, so no need to have surgery to conform to gender stereotypes.

100% of men should stay out of women’s spaces though, however they identify or present. We’re not shields for vulnerable men.

flyingbuttress43 · 02/01/2023 13:20

Excellent summary BenCoopersSupportWren.
Two aspects that are not laboured enough, I think, about this issue are:
a) in discussions/debates in the media and in many public document it is hardly ever made clear how small a proportion of transwomen have surgery. Many people seem to assume that transwoman = someone who has gone through surgical and hormonal treatment. I think there would be much more pushback if the facts were widely known.
b) the mistaken belief that the gender ID movement is progressive. It's the opposite. It is totally regressive as it accepts outdated gender roles. The truly progressive attitude is one that accepts that historical gender roles are outdated and men and women can follow the lifestyle/career/hobby etc. they enjoy irrespective of their sex.

47times11 · 02/01/2023 15:11

BenCoopersSupportWren · 02/01/2023 12:46

This post is a classic example of what happens when you conflate, or allow to become conflated, the words “sex” and “gender”.

“Sex” is biological reality. It is not possible to change sex, no matter how many hormones are taken or how much surgery undergone. You are the sex capable or potentially capable of producing either a) large immobile gametes (female) or b) small mobile gametes (male).

Certain public spaces are sex-segregated because it has been recognised for a long time that the sexes have different needs, particularly when vulnerable, and as a sex class women are at risk from men as a sex class. This is based on biological differences; men are on average stronger, penises can and have been used as a weapon and so on. As a society, we recognised (until seemingly very recently) that as we cannot identify the predatory men from the respectful men, it is acceptable to exclude ALL men from spaces where women are vulnerable: public toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, rape/DV crisis shelters etc.

“Gender” meanwhile is a set of socially-constructed roles and stereotypes designed to prescribe how the two sexes should behave. They’re prescriptive and damaging to both sexes but particularly to women, as they seek to control female behaviour in ways that disadvantage us. Blue for boys / pink for girls, “boys don’t cry” / “that’s not very ladylike”, men are breadwinners / women are nurturing are all examples of gender stereotypes.

Nothing, other than the weight of society’s expectations (and I don’t underestimate how powerful that can be), prevents any of us from pushing back against gendered stereotypes. Once upon a time it was frowned upon for women to wear trousers, now it’s not even noteworthy. There is absolutely nothing preventing a man from wearing a dress, long hair, make up and calling himself a stereotypically female name if he so wishes. It does not make him female, or a woman; it makes him a gender non-conforming man, and more power to him. He should not be subject to harms for breaking gender norms, and he should certainly be safe to use men’s toilets, changing rooms etc no matter how femininely he chooses to present.

If other men are not capable of accepting feminine men in their spaces they need to become more tolerant, and if any of them behaved violently or abusively towards the GNC man then they should, as another PP said, be subject to criminal charges, just as they should if they attacked (verbally or physically) an elderly man, a gay man, a man with LDs, or any other vulnerable man using the male facilities.

(if you think that transgender men should be allowed to use women’s spaces because of a perceived fear of being harmed in men’s spaces but you aren’t extending the same invitation to those other vulnerable categories of men…why not?)

If a person is repulsed by their own sexed body, their genitalia and/or secondary sex characteristics, that would be better described as “body dysmorphia / dysphoria”, since “gender” is not a biological concept. And personally I do not feel that quite barbaric and experimental surgeries based on selling people the lie that they can change sex should be the treatment for anyone’s discomfort with their body, unless you also advocate for stapling the stomachs of people with anorexia and amputating the limbs of those with BIID.

I absolutely understand the various reasons why around 90%+ of men who present as women retain their penises. Sex is sex, gender is gender. Absolutely not the same thing, so no need to have surgery to conform to gender stereotypes.

100% of men should stay out of women’s spaces though, however they identify or present. We’re not shields for vulnerable men.

Bloody hell @BenCoopersSupportWren

Way to summarise the entire goddamned argument and point in a single post.

Chapeau.

ScrollingLeaves · 02/01/2023 16:43

BenCoopersSupportWren · Today 12:46

I absolutely understand the various reasons why around 90%+ of men who present as women retain their penises. Sex is sex, gender is gender. Absolutely not the same thing, so no need to have surgery to conform to gender stereotypes.

100% of men should stay out of women’s spaces though, however they identify or present. We’re not shields for vulnerable men

I absolutely agree with what you say here.

Your whole post sums up what I think succinctly and eloquently in a way I could never have found words for myself,

( though I secretly believe that as humans we are inclined towards creating gender differences for some sort of Darwinian reasons urged by biological instincts even if in our modern society they are less necessary than in others).

OP posts:
Notaflippinclue · 11/01/2023 18:03

ZILCH

SweetPetrichor · 11/01/2023 18:16

Very few, given it is a complex operation with variable degrees of success.I don’t believe it should be a requirement. It’s certainly not something to be taken lightly, just as I’d imagine very few trans men undergo phalloplasty.
Flashing genitals is not a requirement to get into gendered spaces so what difference would it make? How would you know whether a trans woman still had a penis or had had surgery? An individual seeking to do harm could still overpower and assault a woman…penis or no penis. Not that I believe that’s what most trans gendered individuals are out to do, but just for arguement sake.

Notaflippinclue · 11/01/2023 19:09

Chersfrozenface - difference between trans women and trans women who are men pretending to be women - one wants to use their dicks as a weapon one doesn't

ScrollingLeaves · 11/01/2023 19:13

It is few. I agree it shouldn’t be a requirement.

I also think though that many people assume that men who want to be women undergo extensive surgery in the way some famous transsexuals of the past did.

In my opinion women do need some spaces for women only,
while third spaces should be set up for this small group of men if they need protection from other men, say in prison. There are other categories of men in prison too, who are also vulnerable. In addition there should be third categories for sports also.

OP posts:
Chersfrozenface · 11/01/2023 19:47

Notaflippinclue · 11/01/2023 19:09

Chersfrozenface - difference between trans women and trans women who are men pretending to be women - one wants to use their dicks as a weapon one doesn't

And how can we know which is which?

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