What proportion of men who identify as women do you think have had an operation to remove their male genitals?

[ScrollingLeaves]

Given that any man who identifies as a woman may legally be treated as a woman, join women’s sports, be housed in women's prisons, be in a women’s rape crisis centre, or be on a women’s hospital ward,

I am interested to know what other women reading here think about this question.

The reason for asking here, not on the Feminism and Women’s Rights/Gender board, Mumsnet HQ, is to find out what people think more generally. Please do not move it.

I am asking this out of interest in the wake of the Gender Recognition Reform Bill which has just been passed by Scottish Parliament.

I don’t know much about the underlying emotions that drive trans people to transition, but personally I don’t think there’s any chance that I’d opt to mutilate myself if I were in their position so I don’t blame/judge any trans person who chooses not to get surgery.

I assume that the surgery is painful, risky and you’re not left with an actual functioning/feeling penis or vagina by the end of it so I imagine the numbers are pretty low.

No. Still not women.

I think there is a strong case for treating post op transexuals differently to someone with a self proclaimed gender identity and no intention of ever having surgery to remove their penis though.

That horse has rather bolted though.

I spend very very little time obsessing about the genitals of random strangers. MN is teaching me I am wrong and every time I meet a new person I should stare meaningful at their crotch and ask "how is your cnt/cck today?"

You seem to have ignored the fact that most of us don't care what surgery someone has.

A man is a man. Never a woman.

Yeah. You do that.

Maybe you can have today's bronze 🏅

For the love of God, please stop obsessing about gender identity.

It's not real.

Sex on the other hand is real.

People with penises attracted to people with vaginas certainly aren't going to stop obsessing about other people's genitals anytime soon. It's one of the most basic and intense drives in mammals. After food and safety.

Is gender dysphoria a thing then ? Or just made up ?
Some of the comments on here strike me that some posters just don't like the idea of individuals changing gender in the same way that back in the day folk found gay people repulsive.
I agree that there should be protected spaces for biological females and trans women should not be allowed to participate in female sports before anyone flames me but some of the comments suggest a revulsion about trans people that goes beyond those things. Years ago gay people were accused of being as degenerate as paedophiles, luckily we've moved on.

Don't be silly

Chersfrozenface - intentions

Research shows 97% don't. I bet that's generous too. Most want their cake and eat it.

A male friend of mine had the full operation a few years ago and I knew of one other at around the same time. I don't know how common it is now though.

I wonder how the waiting list compares to breast reduction.

Do you think that someone’s genitalia is irrelevant when it comes to the risk of sexual assault and rape? Something which women are entitled to feel safe from when in women’s spaces?

obviously sitting across the table from someone in a meeting or whatever, or anything else which I might equally do with a woman or a man, I couldn’t care less about someone’s anatomy. But of course it is fucking relevant when it comes to women’s spaces.

OP - in answer to your question I thought it was about 2%

I imagine you would feel very differently, if Karen White was your cellmate in prison. Open your eyes to what is happening on our watch.

The people who want to rebrand women as 'individuals with cervixes' or 'birthing bodies' are calling us obsessed with genitals.

It's sophistry pure and simple.

We're not allowed to call a man a man because it's 'transphobic' so we have to refer to body parts to be clear. And when we do we're called 'genitally fixated'.

If you agree that a man is someone with XY chromosomes and, barring surgery or accident, penis and testicles and a woman is XX then we agree to stop being obsessed with genitals.

You have missed a lot of political machinations. That is far to tried an analogy!

I don't give a shit. I'm getting on with my life. You should try it sometime.

It's a hideous thing to put yourself through and still doesn't make a man any more of a woman.
It's desperately sad all round.
I'm really worried for our young people who are sold a lie and end up losing years of young adulthood to thinking this is the answer - regardless of how far down the medical route they end up going

I see others have rightly said the proportion is about the same, or if anything higher.

But this question of 'danger' is not the only one that needs asking. I'd like to know if you think women are entitled to female only spaces for reasons of privacy and dignity? And, in the case of sport, fairness?

I know this thread is about trans women but I saw a thread on twitter yesterday showing trans men who had bottom surgery.

I'll never understand how anyone can think you can stitch on/lop something off and it will work just as it did before.

The pictures were truly horrifying. One poor person had a penis-like-thing sewn on to their stomach, just under their bellybutton.

Why do we need to play this fucking ridiculous game?? To the pp who mentioned their DM. Of course she's female and should use the female toilets, because having a hysterectomy and mastectomy doesn't change your DM chromosomes.

Far far far fewer than women who have their breasts removed in order to be trans men, I expect.

I saw that too @PinkPrettyAndPointed it was horrific.

I would not know. I am sure there is a statistic to look up somewhere. Nowadays, any bloke can self ID as a women and you are expected to believe them. I know several who have beards and talk about their "lady cocks". Sorry, but I am not going to share their delusions.

I know two transexuals who spent years living as women, and both had all the surgery to complete their transition. They are quiet about it, and don't feel the need to fly any flags. Whether it makes much difference, I don't know, but they both transitioned well over 15 years ago.

I used to have a really good reference for this from a trans health journal. It was a review of lots of studies done in various settings. The results varied massively depending on setting, as you would expect.

For studies conducted in gender clinics the proportion was much higher (although still a minority). For anonymous questionnaires on internet forums the proportion was negligible.

I posted the link on the Break It Down For Me thread but some time between 2018 and now my posts have been deleted. No idea why, I was just reporting what trans-friendly researchers had published themselves.

I'll see if I can find it again because it was a good resource.

But anyway to answer the OP's question, not many at all. It's impossible to give a proportion without knowing the size of the trans population and as it's considered transphobic to set any limits on who is trans, it's impossible to say how big that population is.

Very few men wish to have their penis removed, regardless of their gender beliefs.

I thought this thread had been deleted. It definitely was. How is it back?

In my opinion, I think many people presume that any man who identifies as a woman would be like those well known transsexuals as they used to be called like Jan Morris or April Ashley who went to great lengths to get surgery to make their bodies resemble women’s. This is what I thought until a few years ago and reading here.

But Fairplay for Women says:

In 2016, a meta-analysis of 27 studies estimated a rate of approx 10 per 100,000 of the population (0.01%) have a transgender diagnosis and/or surgical or hormonal treatment. In contrast 355 per 100,000 of the population(0.35%) self-identity as transgender. This means only 2.8% of the transgender community is undergoing any gender-affirming treatment with the vast majority 97.2% simply self-identity with no modifications to their sexed body whatsoever.

In a following paragraph about the USA they wrote:
……….This means less than 0.1% of the trans community undergoes genital surgery each year supporting our conclusion that the vast majority of males who identify as women retain their penis

fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

I do not think any transgender person should have to have surgery, (even though though that may be their choice if they are an adult with debilitating dysphoria). It seems such an unreasonable thing to do to anyone’s healthy body.

At the same time, transwomen should have no place in certain women’s spaces.
In my view though surgery would make considerable difference in making it safer for women in places like prisons, it would not change the violation of women’s privacy and dignity, or necessarily change male behaviour and attitudes.