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Ukraine Invasion: Part 34

988 replies

MagicFox · 23/10/2022 21:29

Welcome all πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦

OP posts:
Thread gallery
80
notimagain · 29/10/2022 17:45

TBF with regard to the Kerch bridge if the Russians couldn't detect a ship heading towards the bridge you could also make a case for a B-2/JDAM equipped bomb of some flavour......or in other words darned if I know.

We may never know the reality...especially if western SF were involved because a lot of the stuff they get up to can stays under wraps for many years, even post conflict.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 29/10/2022 18:30

Meanwhile in Russia: several panelists threw some truth grenades at the stunned TV hosts, look how those angry propagandists pummeled the pundit who said that by destroying the infrastructure, Russia is waging a cruel, sadistic war against civilians. He won't be invited back.

twitter.com/juliadavisnews/status/1586395220476039168?s=61&t=lBG18raeVhAPZTf8ThaRtw

Ijsbear · 29/10/2022 18:31

I saw that. Thank heavens a few people are still sane there.

MissConductUS · 29/10/2022 18:41

More info about the attack on the Ru naval base is coming out. If you scroll down on this thread, you'll see a video of a ship on fire.

twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1586300573804003328

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 29/10/2022 19:30

Transcript of the Arestovych livestream from yesterday.

twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1586421709443420161?s=61&t=lBG18raeVhAPZTf8ThaRtw

Ijsbear · 29/10/2022 19:42

His summaries are so good

'News' about General Lapin, who is (was?) in charge of Moscow Central Military District. This could just be another Twitter rumour ...

Igor Sushko
@igorsushko
Β·
7m
🚨 #MOSCOW: Russian General Lapin's dead body found in the Moskva River. #Lapin was in charge of the Eastern Front and was blamed for the catastrophic #Kharkiv rout and surrender of #Lyman. Terrorists #Kadyrov & #Prigozhin's plan to take over the Ministry of Defence in action.

RedToothBrush · 29/10/2022 20:10

ljsbear, I've just read this tweet, then you posted that.

Tim White AT TWMCLtd 6hrs ago
Recently the owner of the Wagner group, and increasingly influential Progozhin has been highly critical (and ordered his followers to be) of Aleksandr Lapin, who commanded #Russia's troops in #Donbas/#Kharkiv.

Today he's been sacked.

Wagner is winning the war vs Russian MoD

Sacked? Then rumours found dead?

Weird as fuck.

RedToothBrush · 29/10/2022 20:15

Deborah Haynes AT haynesdeborah
What a scoop by AT MoS_Politics: Liz Truss’s personal phone was hacked by agents suspected of links to Russia. β€œThey gained access to top-secret details of negotiations … as well as private messages she exchanged with her close friend KwasiKwarteng”
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11368619/Liz-Trusss-personal-phone-hacked-Putins-spies-secret-details-negotiations.html

WTF!

The hack was discovered during the summer Tory leadership campaign, when Ms Truss was Foreign Secretary, but the details were suppressed by the then Prime Minister Boris Johnson and the Cabinet Secretary Simon Case.

One source said the phone was so heavily compromised that it has now been placed in a locked safe inside a secure government location.

It is understood that the messages that fell into foreign hands included criticisms of Mr Johnson made by Ms Truss and Mr Kwarteng, leading to a potential risk of blackmail.

They are also believed to have included highly sensitive discussions with senior international foreign ministers about the war in Ukraine, including detailed discussions about arms shipments.

AND

But a source with knowledge of the incident said: 'This caused absolute pandemonium. It is not a great look for the intelligence services if the Foreign Secretary's phone can be so easily plundered for embarrassing personal messages by agents presumed to be working for Putin's Russia.'

notimagain · 29/10/2022 20:21

Thank for that RB...

So was this "Personal phone" one she had procured and paid for herself but she used for Government and other business, or a Government supplied device equipped with whatever protections the anti spook spooks can give such things?

notimagain · 29/10/2022 20:22

RB? .....RTB....

Ijsbear · 29/10/2022 20:30

Im not sure about the Lapin thing; I think it might have been a pisstake in the light of Sevastopol.

The Russians hacking the phone but the details were suppressed by the then Prime Minister Boris Johnson and the Cabinet Secretary Simon Case. is just unbelievable. They need prosecuting as traitors, covering this up.

It's incredible.

MissConductUS · 29/10/2022 20:30

Obama was forever moaning about the awful secure cell phone he had to use.

www.theverge.com/2016/6/11/11910306/obama-upgrades-from-blackberry

It looks like convenience won over security with Liz's phone.

notimagain · 29/10/2022 20:35

Ijsbear · 29/10/2022 20:30

Im not sure about the Lapin thing; I think it might have been a pisstake in the light of Sevastopol.

The Russians hacking the phone but the details were suppressed by the then Prime Minister Boris Johnson and the Cabinet Secretary Simon Case. is just unbelievable. They need prosecuting as traitors, covering this up.

It's incredible.

TBF there might have been some value in not letting anybody outside a very limited group of people know the eavesdropping had been discovered.......

Ijsbear · 29/10/2022 20:38

huh ... Right. Good point. But that possibility would be far more convincing in other hands than BoJo's, a proven liar and self-server.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 29/10/2022 20:40

notimagain · 29/10/2022 20:35

TBF there might have been some value in not letting anybody outside a very limited group of people know the eavesdropping had been discovered.......

I don't really get why we would need the details. Seriously. What good would they be to us, what would we be able to do with them?

RedToothBrush · 29/10/2022 22:09

Satellite pictures seem to show that Russia has abandoned Chornobaivka Airfield in Kherson Region

Ijsbear · 29/10/2022 22:25

Thread about the Sevastopol harbour attack. Summary: three USVs seem to have made it to the harbour and impacted on ships; one seems to have been the Admiral Makarov as the profile fits that class of ship and it's the only one known to be in the area. The other was likely a Natya class minesweeper, Soviet designation Project 266M Akvamarin. According to Russian MOD the Ivan Golubets received minor damage.

twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1586460379697348608

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 29/10/2022 23:15

More reports of explosions in Sevastopol, not confirmed yet:

⚑️Explosions are reported in temporarily occupied Sevastopol. We are waiting for official information

twitter.com/warmonitor3/status/1586479997207863297?s=12

RedToothBrush · 29/10/2022 23:21

From earlier today:

Ben Hodges AT general_ben
Maritime unmanned systems could be a huge contribution to Ukrainian efforts to dislodge Russian forces from Crimea and to interdict Russian resupply efforts across the Kerch Straits...another way Ukraine is taking the initiative instead of waiting to respond to Russian attacks.

and

Evergreen Intel AT vcdgf555
Russian Navy may need to make a choice soon. Considering the surprise achieved, how easily breached defenses were, plus having no idea how many more of these USVs Ukraine may have, the risks BSF take by staying in Sevastopol are a lot higher today.

Then there is a new report tonight about MORE explosions in Sevastopol....

RedToothBrush · 29/10/2022 23:33

Also, going to be fascinating to see the 'we can use iranian drones on ukraine, but ukraine can't use naval drones on Sevastopol' hot take on Russian TV.

whatsthestory123 · 29/10/2022 23:40

im hearing that Russia will be stopping the grain getting through
what implications would that cause to the UK and wider world

thanks

Igotjelly · 29/10/2022 23:42

whatsthestory123 · 29/10/2022 23:40

im hearing that Russia will be stopping the grain getting through
what implications would that cause to the UK and wider world

thanks

Increased food prices and a shortage of food in certain countries. Somalia for example are already on the verge of a major famine.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 30/10/2022 00:17

Supposedly in response to Sevastopol drone attacks Telegram blocked, lots of tweets although I haven't seen this verified

❗️Russia has blocked all access to Telegram across the Russian Federation πŸ‡·πŸ‡Ί.

Putin fears the truth as much as he fears his own people. He is a coward who knows the tides are turning against his regime.

twitter.com/officejjsmart/status/1586456976497643521?s=61&t=lBG18raeVhAPZTf8ThaRtw

ParsleySageRosemary · 30/10/2022 03:03

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2022 00:48

Strawberries, a Ukrainian I spoke described what her sister was saying.

Her sister was living in Mariupol and went to Russia where she had relatives. She had spent a lot of her childhood in various parts of the USSR.

Her sister KNEW that Mariupol was being bombed by the Russians BECAUSE SHE WAS THERE. Yet she was saying she didn't trust the Ukrainian government and she didn't trust the Russian government.

She RETURNED to Mariupol to see the state of her home because she didn't believe what she was being told and she wanted to 'claim' her property as she was told if she didn't she'd lose it. When she returned she found it was condemned. But she didn't believe it until she saw it with her own eyes.

I think it sums things up so well.

She had been told contridactory things, and things that both matched her lived experience and didn't match her lived experience. She clearly didn't know where to find trusted information sources.

The net result after a lifetime of living under Soviet/Russian/Ukrainian corruption and disinformation is that she had no trust in any authority. So she KNEW she was being lied to, but she also didn't know the truth or how to find the truth.

Deprieved of the ability to do that, it limited what she felt her choices were. She could only do things that related directly to her. She couldn't do any 'big actions' because she didn't know how. Her sister in the UK was telling her to get out of Russia (she probably could have still at this point). But she didn't know how to action it, or if she actioned it whether she'd have a home to go back to, cos ultimately all she wanted to do was go back to her house in Mariupol and live there. And she didn't know how to break out the system she was in. She was locked in by passive acceptance and an inability to navigate out of what she was told to do.

She doesn't care about the politics of other people, because these things are for other people - the big people in authority. She is not of this class. It doesn't matter to her, she is not expected to be involved in these conversations. Her opinion on affairs matters this little and she knows it. So whats the point of having an opinion, because you can't change the situation you find yourself in. The only thing that matters is living day to day and surviving.

This is the point: The destruction of the ability to disearn the truth, renders you powerless. If you have no way of knowing what the truth is, you have no power to challenge authority. It is the ultimate device to destroy the power of the citizen and reduce them to a level of passive acceptance of their lot in life which they only have the power to accept and not to question. In this way you learn, you only obey authority because you know if you don't, your day to day life will be even harder, in a country where the culture is so hierachical and punches down on those below.

Critical thought relies on the ability to identify arguments and build an argument on the basis of logical fact. But if there are no logical facts that you can accurately identify and trust, how can you do this? We take this for granted in the UK, as we are allowed freedom of speech and we value the promotion of the truth. Which is why we find it so hard to imagine feeling like we are so unimportant that our opinions are utterly pointless.

I've seen a number of Russians, commenting on Russian culture and its people and how they are extremely passive and merely do what they are told rather mindlessly. It starts to make sense when you realise they have been conditioned from birth to be like this and just repeat what they are told, even if they know it to be a lie because they know that this 'keeps them safe'. In reality at this point, we know here that repeating the lie doesn't keep them safe anymore, but such is the extent of the lie and their conditioning they don't know how to do anything different.

Hannah Arendt talks a lot about this, in her writing about totalitarianism:
The result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth, and truth be defamed as lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world β€” and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end β€” is being destroyed.

She also goes on to say:
There always comes a point beyond which lying becomes counterproductive. This point is reached when the audience to which the lies are addressed is forced to disregard altogether the distinguishing line between truth and falsehood in order to be able to survive.

Putin can only destroy the concept of the truth within his own country. He can not change reality as it exists though. Much of what he is doing is nothing to do with Ukraine and is everything to do with maintaining his own power and authority domestically, which relies on the destruction of the very concept of truth. In blurring reality, no one can say for sure if its 1000, 10,000 or 100,000 Russians who have died. All they can say is 'a lot of Russians have died'. They can't quantify the scale of the risk and threats that it poses to them on an individual level. It is only when they see it for themselves and it becomes apparent that their survival depends on their actions at that desparate point that they will cease to be anything other than utterly passive as politics isn't for them, its for elites.

In democracies politics is something we participate in. This is the point.

Hope this makes sense.

Hello, delurking just to say this (and the follow-ups) is one of the most articulate and powerful statements of the need for and power of truth and information I have read in a long time. Although I do think you are a little over-comfortable in the contrast with Russia and the UK. A lot of what you say is actually applicable to the UK in its current state of decline. You describe the failing of democracy here perfectly.

In Britain now we are in a state of inverse totalitarianism. People, particularly the well-off and those slightly insulated from reality, have already chosen to abandon the pursuit of information in favour of what is easy: instead choosing the path of social status for themselves, polite fictions becoming political correctness becoming truth, charisma over thought and pragmatism in politics. Even in the professions designed to defend - or especially in the professions designed to defend freedom of thought, across the whole reach of the infosphere - education has been sacrificed for political correctness and woolly engagement, information for what looks good and sounds comfortable, what promotes the interests of that comfortable middle class over what is needed for working people to keep Britain’s lights on, what is real for what sells, substance over style. You can see it everywhere in media, schools, what little is left of the libraries, archives, all captured. Which is why so many scramble on to social media and spend ages trying to find out what is going on from diverse sources everywhere instead of being able to rely on traditional institutions.

Anyway, slightly off piste, and thanks to all for keeping these incredibly useful threads going!

RedToothBrush · 30/10/2022 04:48

Parsley I don't think you are wrong. Sadly. I am very much concerned about political correctness and tribalism within the UK.

I don't know if anyone watched the Jimmy Carr program on destroying the artwork, but it was depressing in the extreme that a generation were willing and wanted to destroy things because they didn't like the personal lives and standards of those who made them. It was only when the level of art reached an exceptional standard that they finally decided something had value. The willingness to preserve things for future generations to have conversations about value was discarded because of this somewhat arrogant air of them being worthy judge, jury and executioners and arbiters of moral judgment.

Its almost like the referendum was a civil war, but now we are in a phase of puritanical zealotry and rather than being progressive we are regressing into a state of self important bullshit which doesn't match with reality.

There is an entire generation which doesn't seem to know how to think critically. I find it's conformity alarming. The teenage girls all look the same, have the same hair cut etc and the teenage boys walk around in black uniform when out of school - what they wear is so the same. It's at a level that hasn't existed since the 1950s. What they say and believe is much the same.

It doesn't bode well for invention or entrepreneurship. It's a machine to generate mediocre middle management to carry out tasks to order rather than do a job well and with pride.

The level of general knowledge and awareness of the world is bloody shocking.

I don't know how you go about reversing the mindlessness of it. FWIW I don't think we are alone in this. I think we are merely early adopters within liberal democracy. I think others are also following because I think much is culturally driven by social media.

It troubles me, and I'm determined to make DS think and think out the box for himself. Though it also worries me that in doing so it sets him up for more difficult paths in life and means he may struggle to feel he fits in with his peers.

Anyway, it's a 4.50am thought. Which reflects my inability to sleep again.

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