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Original poster

Is anyone on here pro-life?

234 replies

DancingSunflowers · 29/09/2022 17:05

Just wondering.

OP posts:
Friedgreentomatoeshere · 30/09/2022 15:41

@pointythings
'The issue of whether or not a soul exists is a purely religious one, however, and should not be taken into account in the medical setting.'

Maybe not by the staff but, as I said, it may be very relevant to the patient.

RosettaTheGardenFairy · 30/09/2022 16:11

RampantIvy · 30/09/2022 15:19

I think as she's written to me several times over the years expressing how sad she is not to have a relationship with me or my kids (I've 3 kids born after we lost touch).

You sound awful. I feel sorry for your sister and your parents @RosettaTheGardenFairy.

What have I said to bring you to that conclusion? I have standards and base my relationships on them, same as everyone else. I judge the people around me on their actions, behaviour and thoughts and strengthen/weaken the relationships as I see fit.

Doesn't everybody do the same?

I don't want to be friends with someone who's had abortions because they forgot to use contraception, or parents who allow their children to change gender, or people with racist views or people who smoke etc. those are my standards; everybody's are different.

As I said above, everybody can do what they want with their body, but they can't force me to support them or continue a relationship with them.

In my sister's case she has lots of friends so I'm sure she's fine, and you needn't feel sorry for my parents - they would like us to be closer, but I'm very close to my brother so they get to see us together and all the young grandkids, so they're happy.

pointythings · 30/09/2022 16:23

@Friedgreentomatoeshere which is why patients can refuse treatments and medical professionals should keep their beliefs away from their work. Abortion and contraception are legal in the UK. So if you do not want to be involved, however peripherally, in the provision of such services, choose your profession accordingly.

Friedgreentomatoeshere · 30/09/2022 19:18

@pointythings
'Abortion and contraception are legal in the UK.' Agreed

'So if you do not want to be involved, however peripherally, in the provision of such services, choose your profession accordingly.'

That is eminently sensible.

I'm not sure what your point is ?

ancientgran · 30/09/2022 19:20

gnilliwdog · 30/09/2022 14:32

@ancientgran I understood your point, and you are right it isn't helpful to put out a message that it is difficult to get an abortion in the early weeks of an unwanted pregnancy. The service is there and generally supportive of any woman who doesn't want to continue a pregnancy. The criteria become more severe as a pregnancy continues which I think is due to consideration of when a foetus becomes viable.

Thank you. I sometimes wonder if people actually read posts or just bits. I was on a thread yesterday where it didn't matter how many times the OP said X posters were determined she'd said Y. It is strange.

ancientgran · 30/09/2022 19:23

pointythings · 30/09/2022 16:23

@Friedgreentomatoeshere which is why patients can refuse treatments and medical professionals should keep their beliefs away from their work. Abortion and contraception are legal in the UK. So if you do not want to be involved, however peripherally, in the provision of such services, choose your profession accordingly.

And the same goes the other way round. After the one incident I had with the doctor shouting at me that I had to have the test I had a cry in the car. I had tried so hard to control it with him and thank god for the lovely midwife who intervened and told him to stop. Whatever his views on a woman pushing 40 having a baby and not wanting tests he had no right to bully me. At one point he told me I had to have the triple test, literally claiming I had no choice.

Friedgreentomatoeshere · 30/09/2022 19:36

@micey
I will repeat it because you seem to have trouble understanding."

There is nothing wrong with my comprehension. (And I hope you aren't so patronising and rude to your patients)

Religion has no place in medicine.

In your opinion.
I disagree.
The OP asked for Pro-Life arguments - I am putting some forward.
I'm sorry you have a problem with that.

Profession Hordern can express any opinion he likes. What he can't do, and neither can you, is push that opinion onto trying to influence medical professionals delivering real medical care or pregnant women seeking abortions.

I can't speak for Prof Hordern, but I am certainly not "pushing any opinion(s)".

You clearly have an agenda you're trying to push in regards to this.

You appear to be unduly sensitive about this. Please be assured I'm not a paid up member of the Westboro Baptist Church. 🙂

micey · 30/09/2022 20:42

@Friedgreentomatoeshere why are you @ing me again? I stop responding to you hours ago. You're clearly just chasing an argument at this stage.

pointythings · 30/09/2022 20:51

@ancientgran it is appalling that this happened to you, and the doctors involved should have been in major trouble. The whole point about being pro choice is that it is the woman and she alone who gets to make the choice.

@Friedgreentomatoeshere the point I am making is that there have been far too many cases of people being in professions where they may be asked to prescribe the morning after pill, for example, and yet they are allowed to refuse on 'moral' grounds. That is unacceptable. If you don't want to prescibe the MAP, don't be a bloody pharmacist.

ancientgran · 30/09/2022 21:06

pointythings · 30/09/2022 20:51

@ancientgran it is appalling that this happened to you, and the doctors involved should have been in major trouble. The whole point about being pro choice is that it is the woman and she alone who gets to make the choice.

@Friedgreentomatoeshere the point I am making is that there have been far too many cases of people being in professions where they may be asked to prescribe the morning after pill, for example, and yet they are allowed to refuse on 'moral' grounds. That is unacceptable. If you don't want to prescibe the MAP, don't be a bloody pharmacist.

Exactly, there shouldn't be any bullying or judgement either way. Fortunately I normally saw the Consultant, as I was so old, and he was lovely.

Do all pharmacies do the MAP? I got a letter from my DDs school when she was about 14 saying the school would take girls to get the MAP on a Monday if they asked for help, which I thought was hilarious as they wouldn't let them take a paracetamol at school. I asked to see the Deputy Head who had written the letter, she was very defensive until I said, "Why don't you give out condoms on a Friday afternoon if they want them. Prevent pregnancy and any infections." She said they couldn't as it would seem they were encouraging it. I thought it was a bit of a missed opportunity. She was clearly expecting me to be fire and brimstone about it so she was a bit taken aback.

pointythings · 30/09/2022 21:24

@ancientgran pretty sure the MAP is standard and all pharmacies must provide it. It's no different from blood pressure meds, antidepressants etc. So no pharmacists should get a pass. Same with registrars - marriage equality is a thing, therefore you must marry everyone who is assigned to you and if you have an issue with that, get out of the business.

Fabuleuse · 30/09/2022 22:36

Yes, I am pro-life or insert your preferred alternative terminology

poweredbysteam · 30/09/2022 22:39

ancientgran · 30/09/2022 21:06

Exactly, there shouldn't be any bullying or judgement either way. Fortunately I normally saw the Consultant, as I was so old, and he was lovely.

Do all pharmacies do the MAP? I got a letter from my DDs school when she was about 14 saying the school would take girls to get the MAP on a Monday if they asked for help, which I thought was hilarious as they wouldn't let them take a paracetamol at school. I asked to see the Deputy Head who had written the letter, she was very defensive until I said, "Why don't you give out condoms on a Friday afternoon if they want them. Prevent pregnancy and any infections." She said they couldn't as it would seem they were encouraging it. I thought it was a bit of a missed opportunity. She was clearly expecting me to be fire and brimstone about it so she was a bit taken aback.

Show quote history

I think it's great that the school offered that, especially since many children wouldn't be able to go to their parents about it.

ancientgran · 01/10/2022 11:16

@poweredbysteam Don't you think the condoms on a Friday would be a good idea? I think prevention is better than cure so condoms on a Friday will be good for preventing STIs and will reduce the number needing the MAP. Things aren't always planned but generally when mine were teenagers I'd have much preferred the condoms but it doesn't have to be either or.

ancientgran · 01/10/2022 11:21

pointythings · 30/09/2022 21:24

@ancientgran pretty sure the MAP is standard and all pharmacies must provide it. It's no different from blood pressure meds, antidepressants etc. So no pharmacists should get a pass. Same with registrars - marriage equality is a thing, therefore you must marry everyone who is assigned to you and if you have an issue with that, get out of the business.

I'm old so I tend to think things should need a prescription and I wasn't sure if all pharmacists were qualified for that. I know HCPs can qualify as prescribers for some prescription meds, not sure if it is all. Of course you might not need a prescription which would do away with prescriptions anyway.

You can buy so many things without prescription that were prescription only years ago.

BiscuitLover3678 · 01/10/2022 20:20

Choopi · 29/09/2022 17:32

I would be dead if the pro lifers where I live had have got their way and abortion stayed illegal. It's pretty hard to respect someone who would see you dead for a fetus that would never had stood a chance anyway.

Show quote history

Well that would be horrific!

BiscuitLover3678 · 01/10/2022 20:20

ancientgran · 01/10/2022 11:16

@poweredbysteam Don't you think the condoms on a Friday would be a good idea? I think prevention is better than cure so condoms on a Friday will be good for preventing STIs and will reduce the number needing the MAP. Things aren't always planned but generally when mine were teenagers I'd have much preferred the condoms but it doesn't have to be either or.

I’ve only needed MAP after using contraception. Unfortunately it doesn’t do everything!

ancientgran · 01/10/2022 20:36

BiscuitLover3678 · 01/10/2022 20:20

I’ve only needed MAP after using contraception. Unfortunately it doesn’t do everything!

Show quote history

I liked the idea of condoms for safe sex, pregnancy isn't the only risk is it. I also worried about girls (well mine mainly if I'm honest but for all of them) getting pressured to have unprotected as it was OK they could have the MAP on the Monday. Obviously I hope she would have the sense to say no but we can all have mad moments.

MAP would still be there on the Monday in case of something going wrong.

I don't know, maybe the HIV ads in the 80s had a big impression on me. I'm not saying I'd have been thrilled if she'd been pregnant at 15 but if I had to choose between that and HIV I know which one I'd go for. I know HIV is more treatable now so maybe that makes a difference but I'd still want them to have safe sex.

pointythings · 01/10/2022 21:04

I think doubling up on contraception is a really good idea, but even then there are no guarantees. I know two couples who used condoms and the pill and still got pregnant. Both decided to keep the pregnancy, but it just goes to show that the 'well, just use contraception' brigade are completely clueless.

Overall, the countries with the lowest abortion and teen pregnancy rates are the ones that are nailing the early, high quality sex ed/easy access to contraception combo. It really shouldn't be rocket science. And abortion is absolutely still needed even there.

ancientgran · 01/10/2022 22:12

pointythings · 01/10/2022 21:04

I think doubling up on contraception is a really good idea, but even then there are no guarantees. I know two couples who used condoms and the pill and still got pregnant. Both decided to keep the pregnancy, but it just goes to show that the 'well, just use contraception' brigade are completely clueless.

Overall, the countries with the lowest abortion and teen pregnancy rates are the ones that are nailing the early, high quality sex ed/easy access to contraception combo. It really shouldn't be rocket science. And abortion is absolutely still needed even there.

I agree about easy access to contraception and good sex education. Ignorance doesn't protect anyone.

TheGoodFighter · 02/10/2022 13:05

Friedgreentomatoeshere · 30/09/2022 13:50

@TheGoodFighter "You can disagree all you like, but your opinions has no real basis"

You have a right to my opinion and you have a right to yours

"You're not a human being until you're born."

So unborn babies are 'inhuman'?

'as when you count how long you've been alive, you start from when you were born'

So unborn babies aren't alive?

Inhuman? You clearly don't even understand the words you are using.

You are not a human person until you are a born, seperate being. You know this.

So when do you count from, when speaking of how old you are, how long you have been alive?

We all know the answer to this. The moment you are born is the start of your life.

TheGoodFighter · 02/10/2022 13:08

And as stated before, yours is an opinion. Mine is a fact. Don't kid yourself we are equal in this.

TeenDivided · 02/10/2022 13:48

There are lots of possible definitions for when 'life' starts, for example

  • at the moment of conception
  • ensoulment
  • at the point at which the foetus has developed X
  • at the point at which survival outside the womb is viable
  • at birth
The legal system needs to take a sensible route through which isn't dependent on religious beliefs. If someone doesn't want an abortion due to religious beliefs then fine, they don't have to have one, but their beliefs shouldn't prevent another woman from taking a different approach.

There is also a difference between living v being a separate (legal) entity.

whumpthereitis · 02/10/2022 14:50

TheGoodFighter · 02/10/2022 13:08

And as stated before, yours is an opinion. Mine is a fact. Don't kid yourself we are equal in this.

Actually, hers are a fact. ‘Person’ is a legal status, one that isn’t recognised until birth. That doesn’t mean that ‘unborn babies’ aren’t human, but it is absolutely correct to say they are not persons.

I’m not bothered about the alive/not alive argument, as my opinion isn’t dependent on the status of the fetus. Being alive does not/should not give you any rights over someone else’s body.

anyway, the fact of the matter is that women have been having abortions for as long as they’ve been giving birth, regardless of legality. Today, roughly half of all abortions carried out are done so in countries where it is prohibited, and illegal abortion is sadly one of the leading causes of death of women worldwide. That’s the reality of ‘pro life’. I’ve had an abortion and I’m grateful I didn’t have to resort to backstreet methods, because I absolutely would have done.

As far as respecting the pro life opinion goes, I think the fuck not. Respecting someone’s right to have an opinion is not the same thing as respecting the opinion itself.

pointythings · 02/10/2022 15:26

Today, roughly half of all abortions carried out are done so in countries where it is prohibited, and illegal abortion is sadly one of the leading causes of death of women worldwide.

That's the heart of it, isn't it? Banning abortion kills women. If you are in favour of making abortion fully illegal, that is what you want - for women to die.

The forced birthers don't like being reminded of that though.