Is anyone on here pro-life?

[DancingSunflowers]

Just wondering.

You can disagree all you like, but your opinions has no real basis. Mine is legal reality. Personhood begins at birth. You're not a human being until you're born. Ergo, a life does not beging until birth.
You already know that, as when you count how long you've been alive, you start from when you were born. Not before

@TheGoodFighter "You can disagree all you like, but your opinions has no real basis"

You have a right to my opinion and you have a right to yours

"You're not a human being until you're born."

So unborn babies are 'inhuman'?

'as when you count how long you've been alive, you start from when you were born'

So unborn babies aren't alive?

@candycaneframe
"No, most with good levels of cognitive ability understand reality."

So the idea of a human having a soul isn't a reality to you ?

The idea of a human having a soul is a religious concept. There is no place for religion in medicine, science and human rights.

Of course unborn babies aren't alive

You're considered alive from your first breath, babies don't breathe until birth.

It's a very sad and difficult issue, which I would never minimise. It is a necessity, and safe procedures need to be available to avoid greater suffering. I don't think it can be called murder as the reasons for it are those of self-defence. I do question those who think abortion should be available in the UK on the grounds of sex selection. In the countries where that is available it does not seem a matter of women's choice but of cultural and societal pressures.

@candycaneframe 'Of course unborn babies aren't alive'

I am sure than every women on this thread who has felt their unborn child move/kick would disagree with you.

Because they might not appreciate the factual definition of when life begins

One was just because her husband said they would have to cancel the order for the conservatory if she went ahead with the pregnancy

You see, if I heard that I would be seeing red flags immediately - because here is a woman who is being controlled. However, I would not see this as a reason not to have the abortion, because bringing a baby into a controlling or abusive relationship is not a good idea. What you think of as a trivial reason for having an abortion may be not trivial at all - and the bottom line is: you don't know. So don't judge.

@candycaneframe "Because they might not appreciate the factual definition of when life begins"

So are you saying that the unborn child is just a collection of dead tissue that somehow has the ability to move and kick?

Actually, I agree that at a certain point I did feel like I was carrying a life. When my babies started to move, or when one of them would wriggle about when they heard my sister laugh, it felt as if they responded to different voices. I suppose it is helpful to know that most abortions are carried out very early, before the foetus seems responsive. When they are carried out later there seem to be very tragic and necessary reasons for it.

@candycaneframe
A 'stillbirth' is medically defined as 'the death of a baby before or during delivery.'

So have the entire medical profession got it wrong?

I didn't say it was trivial. For the 2nd time I was replying to a post that said Women in Britain cannot obtain abortions 'just because' they want them and I was saying that wasn't my experience. Maybe having read that will make someone feel they can get an abortion and they had feared it was pointless asking.

I don't know if she was being controlled, she said she was happy that she'd done it and had no regrets and this was some years after the abortion so who knows.

Anyway maybe you need to read before you judge.

@ancientgran I understood your point, and you are right it isn't helpful to put out a message that it is difficult to get an abortion in the early weeks of an unwanted pregnancy. The service is there and generally supportive of any woman who doesn't want to continue a pregnancy. The criteria become more severe as a pregnancy continues which I think is due to consideration of when a foetus becomes viable.

@micey 'The idea of a human having a soul is a religious concept. There is no place for religion in medicine, science and human rights.'

With regard to medicine I would disagree;

www.medicinejournal.co.uk/article/S1357-3039(16)30143-8/fulltext

Well I work in obstetrics and maternal care and I do not disagree thank you very much.

Not quite sure why you have sent that link, it's not proof the whole medical society believes it to be true. That is not a medical study. It is an option piece by a professor of Christian Ethics, theology and religion. He has zero medical qualifications.

except I’ve performed abortions and still had 2 so…

Are you a vegetarian or vegan O?

@micey "Well I work in obstetrics and maternal care and I do not disagree" ( thank you very much.)

{Just removed the sarcasm from your post, hope you don't mind.}

So why do you make a note of a patient's religion when they are admitted to hospital?

"That is not a medical study. It is an option piece by a professor of Christian Ethics, theology and religion. He has zero medical qualifications."

So does that mean he has no right to express his opinion? And are you saying that ethics have no place in medicine?

Bit weird but If you're going to quote me I'd rather you have the decency to use the full quote not just the bit you like.

I will repeat it because you seem to have trouble understanding. Religion has no place in medicine. Understanding and respecting a patients religious or personal beliefs has nothing to do with the medical care they receive. It's about person centred care, not the actual delivery or procedures that are required.

Weirdly I don't see anywhere I have said ethics doesn't come into medicine. Medical ethics and law does. Religious ethics does not. Profession Hordern can express any opinion he likes. What he can't do, and neither can you, is push that opinion onto trying to influence medical professionals delivering real medical care or pregnant women seeking abortions.

You clearly have an agenda you're trying to push in regards to this.

@micey 'Understanding and respecting a patients religious or personal beliefs has nothing to do with the medical care they receive'

I think it does viz;

A Jehovah's Witness may refuse a blood transfusion.

A Roman Catholic may refuse an abortion.

A Muslim women may refuse to be examined by a male doctor.

I think as she's written to me several times over the years expressing how sad she is not to have a relationship with me or my kids (I've 3 kids born after we lost touch).

You sound awful. I feel sorry for your sister and your parents @RosettaTheGardenFairy.

@Friedgreentomatoeshere of course people may refuse medical treatments which are in contravention of their beliefs. That isn't controversial in most cases, unless there is the possibility that mental capacity may be lacking and there is a regulatory framework for that situation.

The issue of whether or not a soul exists is a purely religious one, however, and should not be taken into account in the medical setting.