Think I regret doing CPR.

[RegretfulFirstAider]

I wasn't sure whether to post this, in case it puts people off from doing CPR, when it can be a life saving thing to do.

Earlier this year our elderly neighbour came round to ask with help lifting her dh who had fallen. I went round to help. He was unresponsive, grey and not breathing. I phoned for an ambulance and they talked me through doing CPR. It was very traumatic.

Miraculously he survived and came out of hospital. But he wasn't the same afterwards, though he was struggling with falls beforehand. I think he wished I hadn't done CPR as he told me how awful life was afterwards.

Since then he had a huge and very rapid decline decline and has now gone into a carehome, no longer recognising people or where he is. His life is terrible and it is awful for his family to both witness and manage. I suspect he suffered brain damage as a result of what happened.

I feel so very very, guilty. I feel as though by resuscitating him, I turned his remaining life into hell. I know I couldn't have foreseen the future, but it doesn't feel as though it was a kind thing to do.

You did the right thing. E m d r can be very helpful for ptsd

If anyone is currently feeling awful that they were in a similar situation and couldn't manage to do CPR, please don't. How we react in an emergency is down to so many factors and if you couldn't do it, you aren't a bad person. Nobody knows how any of us would manage. It's such a complex thing.

Op,
I’m a former hospice nurse. As hard as it is to watch loved ones suffer, many times, there is “unfinished business” that they are holding on for. It usually relates to words of love that need to be shared or someone they wish to see. Most of my patients’ families and loved ones had meaningful moments and made treasured memories even during the struggles. You may never know about these in relation to your neighbors, but they are probably there. These are things that his loved ones will hold onto after he is gone and the memories of the tough stuff fade. You have them the gift of those moments and memories.

Well she could have closed the curtains, drawn up a chair for the wife and put the kettle on.

The concept of a 'normal' death has been lost in this country. Very few people will have ever witnessed someone just peacefully dying.

This is obviously not OP fault or her responsibilty to fix, but as a society we need to start talking about death, and normal expectations around disease, aging, CPR and dying.

Sadly nowadays unless you have a DNAR is place you aren't allowed to pass away peacefully when your time is up. I'm not exactly sure when it became a thing to attempt resuss on very elderly and frail patients, probably around the same time the compo culture became a thing. I remember as a child in the sixties when my great granny became ill, my mum and my aunts sat with her until she died peacefully. I dread to think what they would do to her nowadays

Really?

How would that conversation have gone with the dispatcher?

I'm sorry I've decided that a good strong brew and subdued lighting is the answer, I'm not a great believer in CPR and do feel free to tell the ambulance not to hurry.

As it happens I agree that too many old and very sick people are put through brutal resuscitation methods, but it's not the place of a first aider to decide

Worse to do not do something and have someone die. That is dreadful. Don't ask me how I know.

This isn't strictly true. As a paramedic I can withhold or discontinue ongoing resusitation attempts if the person is known to be in the final stages of an advanced and irreversible condition, in which attempted CPR would be inappropriate and unsuccessful, even in the abscene of a DNACPR.

An irreversible condition, meeting this criteria

1. May be treated, but can never be cured or elminated
2. Leaves the person unable to care or make decisions for him or herself
3. Without life-sustaining treatment is fatal.

So I don't need a DNACPR for an obvious end of life care patient, or someone in a dementia home. However, it is likely to be the first time I have met the patient so might need some time to think and gather info, and also if the family or carer call 999 and don't give certain vital info they will be sent down a generic algorithm that will not consider the factors above, and will encourage CPR.

This is why it is so, so important for families to talk about and understand the dying process, and not panic and forget to pass important information like the patient has a DNACPR or is under the end of life care/ palliative care team.

Your response has made me giggle a bit.

The circumstance were not one where I could have left him to be in peace while his wife had a cup of tea. They were pretty awful.

@SmudgeButt

Oh OP 💐 for you. You did what was right in that moment and you should not regret it one bit. It was a brilliant thing to have done.

Unlike when I had training many years ago in CPR they now incorporate so much more into it than just the physical act and cover, in very frank terms, about how traumatic a procedure it is, for the person administering, the one receiving and on the body itself. The first time I'd gone through that new element of the training it stayed with me for days.

The British Heart Foundation offers support for people post CPR, it might be good to talk through it with them (the helpline states it's a cardiac nurse who provides the support);

www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/support/support-if-youve-given-cpr

Obviously Eton can answer from the place of a trained healthcare professional, and I have every respect for paramedics and the work they do.

But the vast majority of us would have followed 999's advice. My nearest neighbours are a bus driver and a teaching assistant, I would not expect them to make any decision other than to phone for an ambulance.

Op I haven't rtft so apologies if I'm repeating what others have said but the success rate of cpr is really, really small. You did it. What happened after is not in your control and while it's awful he's declined in the way he has, you did what you had to in the situation you were in

Is it worth seeking some counselling for the trauma?

You did what anyone would do in the circumstances.

it’s not up to you to now judge if his life has value. I’d be he family would rather have him here than not.

*I’d bet his

What you did was follow instructions and you obviously did that well. The decision to attempt CPR was not yours. Realistically you were not going to refuse to attempt the CPR, had you done so you would likely now be berating yourself for having killed the poor man.
You need to acknowledge what a traumatic experience you have had. I think you should consider self referring for therapy.
When elderly people decline they often do so horribly quickly and this gentleman’s issues are highly unlikely to be related to the CPR.
It is extraordinary rare for medical professionals to be successful in resuscitating such a frail and elderly person, I think it quite likely that your intervention didn’t actually save this gentleman’s life and that he may have in any case survived.
I’m confident that his wife will find comfort in knowing that everything was done for her husband.
xx

Not currently no, but at some point in the 25 years I potentially have left as a paramedic I hope this will become a thing, and we can go back to allowing the elderly and chronically ill a dignified and peaceful death at home.

I am passionately in favour of medical euthanasia, but at the same time I find the debate in this country laughable, as we can't even manage a 'normal' death with dignity in many cases, as we (public and many HCPs) are too afraid to talk openly and pragmatically about death and dying.

Of course and I clearly stated this in my first post, however, we still need change as a society and that is as much down to families and couples discussing death and dying as it is a responsibility for HCPs.

Every adult, no matter the age, should be familiarising them self with LPoA, Advanced Directives, living wills, DNACPRs, and thinking about how they might want to managed in a variety of different situations. Then discussing this with their spouses and family so their wishes are known, and officialising these wishes in writing.

How many people have told their spouses how they wished to be managed in the event of a significant head injury? These can tragically happen at any age.

I really don't understand this perspective. If your mum has a DNAR and the 999 caller/ ambulance crew are aware of it they will not expect you to do CPR, nor will they do it themselves

when my dad died last year he was late 80s in heart failure and had a DNAR. He’d been down 45 minutes when I got to him and I had to argue with 999 and 111 that no, I wasn’t going to attempt CPR. When the paramedics arrived after another half an hour they still tried to insist and I had to physically produce the paperwork to stop them. It’s unacceptable to attempt to resuscitate an old man in failing health who’s life has naturally ended and to add to the stress of the family in that situation by bloody guilt tripping them. He’d died. We didn’t need a drama.

Whilst I agree with you (& am lucky enough to have grown up with a mum who was a district nurse and was with many people as they died, and taught me the concept of a good death at an early age) once a 999 call is made the person is going to be instructed through CPR. So the OP
did not have a choice. And I don’t think anyone either not make that 999 call.

You have to give CPR if there is no DNAR in place or unless they they have been dead for long time with signs of decomposition.
You did the right thing but the after effects can be horrible.

I don't have anything to say that is beyond what others have posted. But I think too that you are amazing for doing it. I imagine it must have been very traumatic for you as well and I find that very understandable.

If you can talk it over with anyone a MNers, good friends or you can access any therapy that others have said, I think it might be useful and constructive too.

Lots of hugs to you. And so impressed that you did that!

This is so uninformed, it's hard to know where to start picking it apart.

you have to give CPR says who? which law? what will happen if you dont? What if you physically can't? So no neither you nor anybody else HAVE to give CPR (in a non professional out of hospital scenerio).

unless they have been dead for long time with signs of decomposition decomposition doesn't start to for 24 - 72 hours, a body will look very obviously dead, even to someone who has never previously seen a dead body way before this. Hypostasis (post mortem staining) will occur as little as 30 minutes after death, and rigor mortis approx 2 hours. These bodies will look dead, don't do CPR on them.

Bless you op.
I think everyone up thread has given you the right response.
Definitely get some counselling &
be kind to yourself. You did a really brave thing xx

I admire you for doing a very kind and brave thing.

You can't control where he is now.

You did the right thing and I think you would potentially feel worse if you hadn't done anything and he died. It was almost a no win situation for you.