Ukraine Invasion: Part 31

[MagicFox]

31st thread, welcome all and thanks as usual.

[Ijsbear]

It's honestly of the level of 1200 years ago where farmers thought they were facing Nordic berserkers, superhuman. It's in the old literature. Russia hasn't moved on from then. Now they call it 'manufactured drugs' then they called it 'magical power'.

All it is, is the burning desire to protect your homeland, adrenaline and intelligent strategy.

[Liebig]

@notimagain

However, some of those Russian forces clearly did fight their way through, because they lived to repeat the “Ukrainian drug zombies” story after retreating all the way back to Valuyki, across the Russian border.

That's a tale that's going to grow in the telling.....there's no way many of the Russians are going to run for the hills and then fess up to onlookers/reporters that they they had their backsides handed to them on a plate by better equipped, better led and massively better motivated troops.

Hence these stories, which will become folklore, about being beaten by something or somebody with super human powers....

The cope right now is that they’re literally fighting NATO forces en masse and operating within Ukraine. This works against the idiots in the population, but the soldiers and clued up will be seeing something wrong with such an excuse.

The 1st GTA have been effectively wiped out and they were the premier tank corps defending Moscow. That’s a horrible showing for an army meant to go toe to toe with NATO and getting their arses handed to them by the poorest (second?) nation in Europe.

To quote Bane from The Dark Knight Rises: Peace has cost you your strength. Victory has defeated you!

Except change “victory” to “corruption” and we’re on to something.

[Ijsbear]

... No.

you're wrong.

They are not fighting NATO en masse.

Very, very, far from it.

[Liebig]

@Ijsbear

... No.

you're wrong.

They are not fighting NATO en masse.

Very, very, far from it.

Firstly, learn to quote the person properly. If I hadn’t checked back in, I’d not have seen this.

Secondly, reread my actual post.

[blueshoes]

@Liebig

Firstly, learn to quote the person properly. If I hadn’t checked back in, I’d not have seen this.

Secondly, reread my actual post.

@Liebig am I quoting you properly? Gosh, you are arrogant.

[Liebig]

@blueshoes

@Liebig am I quoting you properly? Gosh, you are arrogant.

You didn’t quote me at all. That was the problem. In fast moving threads, people completely overlook responses because the replies aren’t addressed to them either by an @ or quote function. This is just a general pointer, because not everyone has time to read each post, not so bad right now as it’s a quiet thread.

And on the topic of arrogance, I did not correct someone for something they misread. If you checked, I said the coping narrative is that the RuAF is failing miserably because they make out they’re literally fighting all NATO. This is obviously false, and yet it’s something pushed by pundits who now think Ukraine is going to start whacking Moscow.

The Russkies can’t even handle Ukraine with some second hand additions from Western armouries. They’d have no chance if only the US expeditionary forces in Europe wanted to steam roll into Red Square this evening, to say nothing of other nations. Without the threat of nukes, Russia has literally nothing of a cohesive, competent, combined arms military even fit for what the US and UK was managing in the early ‘90s.

[MissConductUS]

I did not correct someone for something they misread. If you checked, I said the coping narrative is that the RuAF is failing miserably because they make out they’re literally fighting all NATO.

I don't know if Ijsbear misread you or was admonishing the silliness of the Russian copium. In any case, that propaganda won't hold water, even within Russia. Let's all take a moment to be thankful for this feat of arms on the part of the UAF

I quite agree that Putin has left Russia defenseless. That's something that could motivate a military coup. The one thing that strikes real fear in a professional military is an incompetent commander in chief who puts the nation at risk.

Some of the equipment the Ukrainians have gotten is prior generation, but not all. A lot is top of the range and current.

[Liebig]

@MissConductUS

I did not correct someone for something they misread. If you checked, I said the coping narrative is that the RuAF is failing miserably because they make out they’re literally fighting all NATO.

I don't know if Ijsbear misread you or was admonishing the silliness of the Russian copium. In any case, that propaganda won't hold water, even within Russia. Let's all take a moment to be thankful for this feat of arms on the part of the UAF

I quite agree that Putin has left Russia defenseless. That's something that could motivate a military coup. The one thing that strikes real fear in a professional military is an incompetent commander in chief who puts the nation at risk.

Some of the equipment the Ukrainians have gotten is prior generation, but not all. A lot is top of the range and current.

They’ve got documented accounts of T-90A and Ms from the 1st GTA being left behind and integrated into UAF units. Though like the BTR-3, they may have less use for them due to limited components and such compared to the older and more common in Ukraine T-72s etc. I believe the T-80s they capture aren’t rolled into units due to familiarity and repair issues.

There are reports now of a move into Kherson. Though not confirmed, that would be keeping the Russians on the back foot relentlessly. They just had Lyman taken back after being part of Russia for literally a day.

Optics look bad, and whole Kadyrov is blustering as usual, I think the infighting is going to go up to Shoigu and Gerasimov’s level. Not that changing them will help anything.

[MissConductUS]

They’ve got documented accounts of T-90A and Ms from the 1st GTA being left behind and integrated into UAF units.

They have captured some of the better Russian gear, but I was thinking of what's been sent from my side of the pond. The M1113 APC's are old but better than riding in civilian vehicles. On the other hand, HIMARS, the AGM-88 missiles, the AN/TPQ-36 counter-battery radars, etc. are all top-shelf.

I saw the reports about Kherson. That will be a tougher nut to crack, but the Ukrainians have done a lot to shape the battlefield.

[Liebig]

The one-two punch of HIMARS and HARM really has thrown off the Russian forces. They’ve been running more risky CAS this week which has led to more losses from the VKS, including maybe two Ka-52. With so many MANPADS about, flying is just generally a bad idea.

So that leaves artillery, which given the efficacy of Russian doctrine so far (raze cities, nothing surgical), it’s pretty ineffective against shoot and scoot tactics, more so now drones are used extensively.

The Ukrainians may be using Humvees and M113s or BTRs, but they’re using them with the mobility that, combined with the ISR the West is supplying, means they can easily outmanoeuvre Russian forces and deal with potential counterattacks.

Not sure how much longer this can go on for Putin. The mobilised troops are already hitting the frontlines and have been found with ‘50s era helmets, rusted AK-47s (not even AKMs), and little to no food or medical or winter supplies. Going into winter will be decisive, I think.

It’s like they never learned the logistics issues they had in WWII, or anything behind human wave attacks of that era and “level every city block” from the Chechen campaigns. None of that counters UAF movements now.

[LilyPAnderson]

How are people so sure we know all the facts when any news with an alternative opinion is banned? RT news has been banned from our screens.
I lived through times when our media edited out voices of Irish republican politicians, to only hear one side, so our government could keep putting our lives in danger and making everybody hate us for reasons only a few rich people will gain from, while making no attempt at a peace plan. Most people have no memory of politics than the last Tory propaganda headline they read.
I always knew most people are dumbed down from how so many people care about what over hyped and talentless celebs are doing. I knew the international bankers who run the USA and Britain had been trying to start a war against Russia for decades, with the hypocritical media information, because Putin and Russia Today news are only ones who remind our own people of how the USA and Britain sell arms to backward nations like Saudi Arabia, where women and other religions don't have full human rights. While we fund extremists to overthrow leaders like Assad in Syria, one of the few middle east nations with many religions that live together in peace, with ancient Christian communities who still speak Aramaic, the language from the time of Jesus.

Our media kept saying how Russia was evil because some of their states said there shouldn't be promotion of homosexuality to children. When the law against promotion of homosexuality to anybody in Britain was more severe. Section 28 of the Local Government Act 1988 in Britain stated that a local authority "shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality" or "promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship". Which was only repealed in 2003.
Also the Guardian newspaper has a lot of anti Putin, Russian journalists. You only have to see how easily led most people are from all the dumb British people who said they wanted to leave the EU as wanted less people here from Pakistan, as the media and politicians like Farage didn't bother to explain to them that the EU means Europe, and made them think it was about immigration from elsewhere, or about asylum.

It's only since the Ukraine crisis that it has hit me like a bolt at how dumbed down Britain is. People chanting Ukraine and flying Ukraine flags, while not questioning why any media with another point of view is banned, or why there's a promotion of punishing other Russian people who aren't connected to the government. I'm finding it really disturbing. That would be called racism in any other situation.

All most people remember about politics is the last tabloid propaganda headline they read. Who even knows we're more in danger from our own government's actions from making us a USA lapdog? Who remembers when the secret service whistle blower David Shayler told how Tories were using British money to fund Al Qaeda in Libya against Gaddafi? When British people were shot in Tunisia and blown up in Manchester by extremists who trained in Libya after Gaddafi was killed, what media reminded our people that our government helped cause that?
Who remembers Afghanistan wasn't run by extremists before the USA armed and trained the religious extremists in Afghanistan against Russia in the 80s? Then the USA didn't care what was going on in Afghanistan for years before 9/11, such as stories about ancient Buddhist statues being blown up and females banned from education.

[Liebig]

@LilyPAnderson Because I can literally see Russian state TV news and pundit shows and tell you exactly what they’re saying on this matter.

Here’s a snippet of a recent one. Click me.

[Liebig]

Here are some pro-Russian media podcasters. In the last 24 hours, they’ve promoted war crimes.

Attached is a human rights Telegram message based in Chechnya:

We are investigating women who took part in a rally against mobilization in Grozny. We managed to find out that Kadyrov's governors of the invaders gathered these women together with their male relatives and made a choice: either they themselves beat their wives on video, or Kadyrov's puppets do it. Then everyone chose the first option. One of these was Adam Muradov from the village of Yandi-Kotar. It is known that he recently died of a stroke and it is reported that the cause of the stroke was the severe stress experienced then. 👉 Follow 1ADAT

Maybe the side you question, the West, isn’t the one you should be concerned about right now regarding this conflict. I’m sure appeasement or considering Hitler to be misunderstood was all the rage in the ‘30s too, but that shit doesn’t fly here now in 2022.

Whataboutism relating to imperialist endeavours of the past is irrelevant when, since 2014, Russia actually invaded a sovereign nation and annexed territory. Brexit is academic when one side is clearly targeting civilian buildings with cruise missiles and holding a continent to ransom using energy resources.

[borntobequiet]

I’m one of the least well informed people on this thread but even I know that there are many sources both historical and current that confirm the iniquity and abuses of Putin’s regime in Russia and facts about the current war.
The only people who think that there is any justification for their actions are those who are apologists for the regime or those for whom a partial or misleading view is convenient or beneficial in some way.

[MagicFox]

Putin has destroyed the lives of the young in ukraine and in Russia.

"The Russian rapper Ivan Petunin has committed suicide.

He recorded a message to his fans about mobilization.

He said he refuses to murder another man.

He said Putin has taken all Russian men captive, leaving them with 3 choices: becoming a murderer, going to prison or suicide."


twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1576333259583025154?s=46&t=8ZeeNDbyOOLLUio64BN36Q

[L1ttledrummergirl]

@LilyPAnderson how are you so sure that the sources that you've received your information from are genuine? Could you cite your sources for me so that I can read the information for myself? Maybe newspaper article or published books from the time so that I can fact check for myself?

I have a relative who seems to have been caught up in the conspiracy stuff, covid isn't real, the Clinton's eat babies, the West is evil and Putin is a misunderstood great leader doing his best for the people of Russia and Ukraine. I have spent years trying to unpick some of the stuff they read and it's much more helpful with sources as I can understand which bits are real and which are made up bullshit.

As it is, the polarised stuff you have posted above sounds as though its straight out of the you tube videos and non accredited, self proclaimed experts found on the Internet. It is more credible with your sources.

[RedToothBrush]

@LilyPAnderson

How are people so sure we know all the facts when any news with an alternative opinion is banned? RT news has been banned from our screens.
I lived through times when our media edited out voices of Irish republican politicians, to only hear one side, so our government could keep putting our lives in danger and making everybody hate us for reasons only a few rich people will gain from, while making no attempt at a peace plan. Most people have no memory of politics than the last Tory propaganda headline they read.
I always knew most people are dumbed down from how so many people care about what over hyped and talentless celebs are doing. I knew the international bankers who run the USA and Britain had been trying to start a war against Russia for decades, with the hypocritical media information, because Putin and Russia Today news are only ones who remind our own people of how the USA and Britain sell arms to backward nations like Saudi Arabia, where women and other religions don't have full human rights. While we fund extremists to overthrow leaders like Assad in Syria, one of the few middle east nations with many religions that live together in peace, with ancient Christian communities who still speak Aramaic, the language from the time of Jesus.

Our media kept saying how Russia was evil because some of their states said there shouldn't be promotion of homosexuality to children. When the law against promotion of homosexuality to anybody in Britain was more severe. Section 28 of the Local Government Act 1988 in Britain stated that a local authority "shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality" or "promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship". Which was only repealed in 2003.
Also the Guardian newspaper has a lot of anti Putin, Russian journalists. You only have to see how easily led most people are from all the dumb British people who said they wanted to leave the EU as wanted less people here from Pakistan, as the media and politicians like Farage didn't bother to explain to them that the EU means Europe, and made them think it was about immigration from elsewhere, or about asylum.

It's only since the Ukraine crisis that it has hit me like a bolt at how dumbed down Britain is. People chanting Ukraine and flying Ukraine flags, while not questioning why any media with another point of view is banned, or why there's a promotion of punishing other Russian people who aren't connected to the government. I'm finding it really disturbing. That would be called racism in any other situation.

All most people remember about politics is the last tabloid propaganda headline they read. Who even knows we're more in danger from our own government's actions from making us a USA lapdog? Who remembers when the secret service whistle blower David Shayler told how Tories were using British money to fund Al Qaeda in Libya against Gaddafi? When British people were shot in Tunisia and blown up in Manchester by extremists who trained in Libya after Gaddafi was killed, what media reminded our people that our government helped cause that?
Who remembers Afghanistan wasn't run by extremists before the USA armed and trained the religious extremists in Afghanistan against Russia in the 80s? Then the USA didn't care what was going on in Afghanistan for years before 9/11, such as stories about ancient Buddhist statues being blown up and females banned from education.

Oooh we have a pro-Russian conspiracy theorist.

Ironically, because there is concern about how biased the Ukrainian information is, most of the arm chair military bloggers are looking towards Russian sources for verification of things happening.

They then compare what Ukrainians and Russians are both saying.

The age of social media makes it very hard to control information. Especially if you have one side which is desperate, with low moral and feeling like they are being sent to die by their masters.

There is more than one way to find out things from a Russian perspective. And a Russian perspective can be pro-putin and anti-western or anti-western and anti-putin or pro-western and anti-putin and various shades of the above.

And I doubt that having Russian state media available to us would tell us a whole lot more than we already know...

[Igotjelly]

I’m quite surprised we don’t have more Russian conspiracy theorists frankly.

[Mb76]

LiliPAnderson, an alternative opinion, really? From Russia today TV? If you want alternative opinion, there are plenty of pro Putin sources you can follow if you wish.
seeing that this is your first post, I doubt very much that you came here as a genuine person, your post is full of red flags.

[Mb76]

@Igotjelly

I’m quite surprised we don’t have more Russian conspiracy theorists frankly.

That’s because you lot are very good at sniffing them out early on and then no one engages with them, so they bugger off eventually

[PerfectlyPreservedQuagaarWarrior]

I'm actually quite offended by the poor quality of this one. Feels like they used to try a bit harder to be incognito back in the Brexit referendum days. You can really tell the labour squeeze is kicking in.

[PerkingFaintly]

Interesting. This is the second poster I've seen pushing the line that it's all about "the West being mean to Russia because homosexuality".

No, it's much simpler than that.

Ukrainians are resisting Russian invaders in Ukraine because Russia has invaded Ukraine.

[miceonabranch]

I believe that the Russian Orthodox church is influencing quite a bit of Putin's motivation and behaviour. It's well known that ultra nationalists look to the Church as a beacon of purity against the so called degradation of the West and even far right nationalists in the West become involved in the Orthodox Church due to their political beliefs. It's a toxic mix.

Putin has become involved with the leader of the Russian Orthodox Church, Patriarch Kirill and there is obvious influence coming from him.

[PerkingFaintly]

NB I know this poster has tried to "both-sides" the homosexuality narrative (the UK as both pro and anti), but actually the line that "the West is trying to make your children gay" will go down very well in many African countries.

It was also part of Vlad's recent speech, and I imagine worked as he wanted. That part of his speech may have sounded barking to those of us in the UK, but we shouldn't ignore his success in weaponising any type of issue with "culture war" potential to incite division.

This specific one will have been a good distraction for his intended audience from the minor matter of him trying to re-build the Russian Empire and colonise a recently independent country. His imperialism being an issue which will not go down so well in Africa...

[Igotjelly]

Reported in the Guardian:

ISW report suggests that Russian forces couldn’t function on a nuclear battlefield, despite being historically trained to do so. As such any location of a Russian tactical nuclear strike would be impassible for the Russia forces and negate any potential benefits of such a strike to their invasion.