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Ukraine Invasion: Part 31

995 replies

MagicFox · 22/09/2022 06:51

31st thread, welcome all and thanks as usual.

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Thereisnolight · 03/10/2022 22:04

Peaches212 · 03/10/2022 21:25

Sorry I've not read through all the other threads. However, has anyone addressed the issue of Nordstream and the fact that America has had its eye fixed on Europe to sell them their oil and gas for years? Condoleezza Rice herself said it 10 years ago on video, how they don't like Russia having the European markets for oil and gas and that they need to be stopped.

The way I understand it, Ukraine is a proxy war for America and Russia. Both sides are crazy, neither side much cares for who is caught in the middle. We are not really America's "friends" or have a "special relationship", unless you take special as meaning "abusive". America has an incentive to continue the war because it allows money to flow into the arms companies and weakens Russia, thereby allowing it to assert its dominance ever more over the world in a time when its power is waning.

Russia/Putin is probably nuts but there is actual evidence out there which shows how he has tried to be friends with America over the years but has been ridiculed, lied to and humiliated by them. I do believe that although Putin was wrong to invade, that the west pushed very hard to help him in that direction.

So although I won't take sides, I don't like the way that America treats other countries around the world. It is in fact proving awful for us all on so many levels. I also don't like the massive wall of propaganda that we are subject to in the UK, and from the sounds of it, across Europe. This strict anti-russian, pro-western narrative which seeks to arrest our critical thinking.

We are all paying the price for these catastrophic decisions. Obviously some people more than others. I'm so angry about it. We are all being played for fools.

Narcissists fighting narcissists. The losers are the ordinary people who lose their homes, jobs and lives. ‘‘Twas ever thus.

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Fladdermus · 03/10/2022 22:00

Peaches212 · 03/10/2022 21:25

Sorry I've not read through all the other threads. However, has anyone addressed the issue of Nordstream and the fact that America has had its eye fixed on Europe to sell them their oil and gas for years? Condoleezza Rice herself said it 10 years ago on video, how they don't like Russia having the European markets for oil and gas and that they need to be stopped.

The way I understand it, Ukraine is a proxy war for America and Russia. Both sides are crazy, neither side much cares for who is caught in the middle. We are not really America's "friends" or have a "special relationship", unless you take special as meaning "abusive". America has an incentive to continue the war because it allows money to flow into the arms companies and weakens Russia, thereby allowing it to assert its dominance ever more over the world in a time when its power is waning.

Russia/Putin is probably nuts but there is actual evidence out there which shows how he has tried to be friends with America over the years but has been ridiculed, lied to and humiliated by them. I do believe that although Putin was wrong to invade, that the west pushed very hard to help him in that direction.

So although I won't take sides, I don't like the way that America treats other countries around the world. It is in fact proving awful for us all on so many levels. I also don't like the massive wall of propaganda that we are subject to in the UK, and from the sounds of it, across Europe. This strict anti-russian, pro-western narrative which seeks to arrest our critical thinking.

We are all paying the price for these catastrophic decisions. Obviously some people more than others. I'm so angry about it. We are all being played for fools.

You're certainly being played for a fool if you believe any of that shite you just posted.

Tin foil helmets are that way ---->

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Peaches212 · 03/10/2022 21:25

Sorry I've not read through all the other threads. However, has anyone addressed the issue of Nordstream and the fact that America has had its eye fixed on Europe to sell them their oil and gas for years? Condoleezza Rice herself said it 10 years ago on video, how they don't like Russia having the European markets for oil and gas and that they need to be stopped.

The way I understand it, Ukraine is a proxy war for America and Russia. Both sides are crazy, neither side much cares for who is caught in the middle. We are not really America's "friends" or have a "special relationship", unless you take special as meaning "abusive". America has an incentive to continue the war because it allows money to flow into the arms companies and weakens Russia, thereby allowing it to assert its dominance ever more over the world in a time when its power is waning.

Russia/Putin is probably nuts but there is actual evidence out there which shows how he has tried to be friends with America over the years but has been ridiculed, lied to and humiliated by them. I do believe that although Putin was wrong to invade, that the west pushed very hard to help him in that direction.

So although I won't take sides, I don't like the way that America treats other countries around the world. It is in fact proving awful for us all on so many levels. I also don't like the massive wall of propaganda that we are subject to in the UK, and from the sounds of it, across Europe. This strict anti-russian, pro-western narrative which seeks to arrest our critical thinking.

We are all paying the price for these catastrophic decisions. Obviously some people more than others. I'm so angry about it. We are all being played for fools.

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MagicFox · 03/10/2022 19:09

Discussed on the new thread here @mids2019 :-) :

Ukraine Invasion: Part 32 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4647179-ukraine-invasion-part-32

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mids2019 · 03/10/2022 19:04

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11274515/Russian-nuclear-military-train-seen-possible-warning-West.html

this story is appearing in a few media outlets. Even if the movement is part of a military exercise should the West be worried? I know the US decided to postpone nuclear drill because of tensions in the region.

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MagicFox · 03/10/2022 14:47

New thread:

Ukraine Invasion: Part 32 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4647179-ukraine-invasion-part-32

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ScrollingLeaves · 03/10/2022 13:54

DesdamonasHandkerchief · Today 11:08
As a result of the actions of Russian troops in the Black Sea, 50,000 dolphins have already died, says ecologist, and doctor of biological sciences Ivan Rusev. There are 250,000 left

This is so sad, this planet would be so much better off without humans on it. Taken as a whole we're a fucking disgrace.

There hasn't been much in the press about the ecological effects of the Nordstream pipe explosions but I'm assuming the damage to sea life in the area has been extreme.

You are right, *Desdemona^.

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notimagain · 03/10/2022 12:00

The ones you see in the area now have probably been deployed to a suitable European airbase.

Yep, the likes of RAF Fairford in western England is a long standing B-52 Forward Operating Base and they've been operating out of there for months now...

As you correctly say the USAF heavy/strategic bomber Force could mount offensive operations from US without touching European soil using in-flight refuelling.

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Igotjelly · 03/10/2022 11:46

From the Kremlin, largely seen as a rebuke towards Kadyrov. "Moscow favours a balanced approach towards nuclear weapons.....not based on emotion"

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katem98 · 03/10/2022 11:38

autumn1610 · 03/10/2022 11:35

From what I have read it normally disperses in the sea and into the atmosphere when it natural leaks from the seabed etc. however the amount that has leaked is far from normal and yes it will still go into the atmosphere, however it is a big release of methane which apparently is unprecedented and will have a climate/environmental impact. Estimates are it’s millions of cubic meters of the stuff and methane is part of the issue in warming up the planet. So it’s a big bloody environmental disaster with god knows what consequences to the marine life and atmosphere

I've been really concerned about this but you really don't see it reported on very heavily by news outlets.

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autumn1610 · 03/10/2022 11:35

From what I have read it normally disperses in the sea and into the atmosphere when it natural leaks from the seabed etc. however the amount that has leaked is far from normal and yes it will still go into the atmosphere, however it is a big release of methane which apparently is unprecedented and will have a climate/environmental impact. Estimates are it’s millions of cubic meters of the stuff and methane is part of the issue in warming up the planet. So it’s a big bloody environmental disaster with god knows what consequences to the marine life and atmosphere

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MissConductUS · 03/10/2022 11:30

notimagain · 03/10/2022 07:46

The question is then is there enough US/NATO weaponry to execute a devastating attack against Russia in the region? Won't at least.air craft carriers be visible?

Yes IMHO they have more than enough and on that specific point I wouldn't be thinking Aircraft carriers.

Firstly there are quite a few western combat aircraft already deployed to airfields in that part of the world that can reach potential targets, though possibly in some instances they will need air to air refuelling to do so.

I haven't heard what NATO maritime assets are in that part of the world (e.g. in the Eastern med). but some of them carry large numbers of long range cruise missiles.

Occasionally on the ADS tracker sites you'll see the likes of B-52's over eastern Europe, often in holding patterns over Scandinavia and eastern Europe...small numbers but I suspect we're probably not seeing all of them...what we see is for show. Depending on the variant each B-52 could be carrying 20 cruise missiles, all of which could be fired at very short notice.

In short NATO has the capability to deliver a massive amount of conventional ordnance to targets in the occupied parts of Ukraine with short notice without the use of aircraft carriers....

The B-52s can fly missions to Ukraine directly from the US with midair refueling if necessary. The ones you see in the area now have probably been deployed to a suitable European airbase. So you are correct, there's no shortage of assets to carry out this mission if it's required.

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DesdamonasHandkerchief · 03/10/2022 11:18

Thereisnolight · 03/10/2022 11:09

If it’s gas won’t it leave the sea pretty quickly?

I hope you're right, they were big explosions though (wasn't there talk of them being akin to an earthquake) and the biggest single emission of methane into the atmosphere ever. Hopefully the sea life hasn't been too effected but the ecological effects of this war just keep racking up as indeed does the human misery.

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EdithStourton · 03/10/2022 11:18

Re the animal rescues, the impression I have is that dogs at least count for a lot in Ukraine. I saw a video where a bloke was killed going back to collect his three German Shepherds.

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Thereisnolight · 03/10/2022 11:10

But agree with you about humans @DesdamonasHandkerchief

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Thereisnolight · 03/10/2022 11:09

If it’s gas won’t it leave the sea pretty quickly?

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DesdamonasHandkerchief · 03/10/2022 11:08

As a result of the actions of Russian troops in the Black Sea, 50,000 dolphins have already died, says ecologist, and doctor of biological sciences Ivan Rusev. There are 250,000 left

This is so sad, this planet would be so much better off without humans on it. Taken as a whole we're a fucking disgrace.
There hasn't been much in the press about the ecological effects of the Nordstream pipe explosions but I'm assuming the damage to sea life in the area has been extreme.

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Ijsbear · 03/10/2022 10:46

⚡️Ukraine’s military: Russian forces continue mobilization in occupied territories.

Passing through checkpoints has become increasingly complicated, Ukraine's military reports, as Russian forces require an extensive list of documents, conduct lengthy inspections of vehicles, remove gadgets, money, and other valuables, and often refuse to let vehicles through.

⚡️Governor: Russian forces strike Zaporizhzhia, damage infrastructure.

📣 IAEA Director General Rafael Grossi said that the organization is doing everything in its power to free Ihor Murashov, General Director of Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant who was kidnapped by Russia

📍 At both Nord Stream gas pipelines, the gas leak has stopped after four almost simultaneous accidents

⛴ Five more ships left the ports of Ukraine today. On board are 114.7 thousand tons of agricultural products for African and European countries, according to the Ministry of Infrastructure.

⚡️ General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine: Due to the successes of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, more and more russians are surrendering and fleeing from their positions

❗️As a result of the actions of Russian troops in the Black Sea, 50,000 dolphins have already died, says ecologist, and doctor of biological sciences Ivan Rusev. There are 250,000 left





Oddly not as high personnel and equipment losses, given what was happening yesterday, unless they are still in the process of counting - things moved very fast!

Ukraine Invasion: Part 31
Ukraine Invasion: Part 31
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Igotjelly · 03/10/2022 10:42

Really interesting bit in the Guardian just now:

"Kremlin will consult with residents of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia on how to define borders
The Kremlin said on Monday that it will consult with residents living in two of the Ukrainian regions it moved to annex last week - Kherson and Zaporizhzhia - on how their borders should be defined.

“We will continue to consult with people who live in these areas”, Reuters reports Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters.

Russia formally claimed to annex four Ukrainian territories last week, but none are fully under the control of Moscow’s forces and Ukraine continues to advance in the south.

It raises the possibility that the move to annex the four regions marks a halt to any further Russian ambition to take Ukrainian territory beyond their existing borders, and instead Moscow may concentrate on simply holding the land it already has, and imposing new borders that would de facto split the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia oblasts into Ukrainian-held and Russian-held zones."

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Igotjelly · 03/10/2022 10:39

I think @Ijsbear has nailed it, but frankly I just like it, its a tiny bit of light in a very dark time. I do think its largely "look we're human beings and we love and care about other living things, unlike the orcs".

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MagicFox · 03/10/2022 10:39

Thread on the short, medium and long term ramifications of the Ukraine war by Alexander Stubb - worth reading

twitter.com/alexstubb/status/1576797543249371137?s=46&t=JVJ7JyhXLU04YIeCK5kI5w

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Ijsbear · 03/10/2022 10:33

I suspect there's a couple of elements to it. Certainly decision making - im quite sure the whole Patron-the-rescue-dog thing was a deliberate bit of propaganda. But it seems as if Ukraine as a whole really care about their animals (ok im sure there are exceptions but as a rule). Thirdly seeing small, hopeful bits is just downright encouraging and that's important. Fourthly, partly pushing "we are good people and have the moral high ground!". Fifthly some of it was just organic, I'm sure.

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TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 03/10/2022 10:31

Ukrainian soldiers I mean.

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TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 03/10/2022 10:25

I find it very interesting how there is a constant stream of photos and film of Ukrainians rescuing animals - cute puppies, abandoned cats, tending to an injured crane. Has this just happened organically or has the sharing of these been encouraged from the top - Ukrainians have shown themselves to be masters of comms after all and ‘save the cat!’ is a cliche of screenwriting in building sympathy for your character.

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