Ukraine Invasion: Part 30

[MagicFox]

We're now on our 30th thread, thanks as usual to all who contribute.

It is alleged that civilians in Donbas have suffered terribly for the last eight years, and are now being hammered by HIMARS and that might be what is behind this change in policy. Russia said it was using the cauldron technique to save lives, whereas the west announced "coordinated" attacks involving all levels of attacks simultaneously. Civilians have been trying to flee from these areas into Russia according to a CNN report and I also saw a France 24 report about something similar.

Red Cross also indicated that in relation to refugees from Donbas throughout the last seven months, many were choosing to go into Russia, I am not sure whether most posters here are aware of that, or dismiss it as misinformation.

Many people in the west have become increasingly critical of sending in heavy guns before UN monitored referendums are done, it seems, though I don't know what percentage of people this applies to.

Just an edit to that, I haven't seen what was said by the spokesperson for myself and so assumed it was a change of policy, it might not be.

Red Cross also indicated that in relation to refugees from Donbas throughout the last seven months, many were choosing to go into Russia, I am not sure whether most posters here are aware of that, or dismiss it as misinformation.

You seem to have forgotten that Russians shoot people trying to leave ;)

Our Kherson guests had to go through Crimea to escape because the convoy before them were shot up by Russians and people were killed./

You're very good at apparently putting the other side but you aren't so good at looking at the verified and multiple evidences of Russian atrocities.

Any comment on the Bucha rapes, murders and tortures by Russian troops?

What was written was "Armed Forces of Ukraine are discharging men in Donetsk" - if you are now saying it is occupation forces, possibly correct the conflict in what was written before calling someone names. And also clarify your source for that. Are you aware that there were news reports which were considered verified that Ukrainian prisoners were let out of prison early to fight for Ukraine? I was clarifying what was meant here, as it could have been either side, and no evidence is being submitted.

A shill is defined by google as "an accomplice of a confidence trickster or swindler who poses as a genuine customer to entice or encourage others". No I am not a shill. I have already told you that I am not a shill. I am your average MN long term user who disagrees with you and reads current affairs beyond this MN thread. Not a shill. Please do not call me a shill again.

@newnamenewnew interesting pro-Russian views all of a sudden. Are you a Russian speaker? You must be getting these from different sources.

Hiya comrade. Welcome.

There are countless witness statements, some of which have now been taken on board by Amnesty, which indicate that it was the Ukrainian army shooting at people trying to leave Mariupol. I wasn't there so I do not know what happened, but yes the Red Cross and the UN have indicated that it was not true that all refugees were forcibly taken into Russia.

I meant to reply to your other posts about evidence. Most information here is not verified evidence, Bucha is still under investigation and there are allegations both ways.

A few threads back about allegations against Russian forces of horrific child rapes and the Ukrainian official making the allegations later said that she had exaggerated and made things up to try to make sure Ukraine continued to get international help, and she was later sacked. As far as I know that news story has been verified. Yet up to that point it was being taken as evidence. Until something has some degree of verification it isn't evidence.

No I am not a Russian speaker, nor a Ukrainian speaker, I have never been to Russia or Ukraine. What about you?

That should have read "A few threads back there were posts about allegations against.."

I've looked back at your posts. You consistently throw doubt on the Ukrainians, you claim to have done quite a bit of research and yet you seem unaware of the most basic of proven Russian atrocities and you write with a faux-reasonableness that carefully does not engage with valid points.

You point out that Russia convenes a UN meeting while ignoring the UN resolution calling for Russia to stop its offensive news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1113152

It would be very typical of Russia to manufacture a crisis if it was in their own interests and all the evidence so far is that Russian soldiers' lives are not valuable to their commanders, in and of themselves.

I have read this sort of thing but there are never any examples given, and there are no concrete examples to be found on the net.

Disingenuous and dishonest. There are indeed reports of this, which in your research no doubt you'd see if you were unbiased. They aren't hard to find.

It is alleged that civilians in Donbas have suffered terribly for the last eight years, and are now being hammered by HIMARS and that might be what is behind this change in policy

Well perhaps if Russia hadn't invaded that wouldn't be a problem?

Mariupol and many, many settlements are flattened by Russian artillery which is very clearly known and fits with Russian tactics. This is also as obvious as a car that's hitting you, if one is honest.

There are countless witness statements, some of which have now been taken on board by Amnesty, which indicate that it was the Ukrainian army shooting at people trying to leave Mariupol.

well really. You prove your dishonesty very clearly.

@newnamenewnew you gave yourself away by quoting Amnesty. Are these your working hours? Do you work from home (easier to fit around the kids) or from Savushkina Street?

Article by Politico which I hope is spot on:

The chips are down: Putin scrambles for high-tech parts as his arsenal goes up in smoke
List seen by POLITICO shows US and allies control chokepoint technologies sought by Moscow.

www.politico.eu/article/the-chips-are-down-russia-hunts-western-parts-to-run-its-war-machines/

Yeah the Amnesty mention is a dead giveaway isn't it :)

go on @newnamenewnew

Go on. Admit that the UN calls the Russian invasion - operation if you like, which I'm sure you do - Illegal. That the annexation of Crimea is illegal.

Admit that if Russia didn't invade, there wouldn't be over 100,000 dead in Mariupol. I dare you.

Sorry, I'm interrupting! But Lawrence Freedman's latest out today too:

The Economic War
Cutting off Europe's gas supply is Putin's last throw of the dice

samf.substack.com/p/the-economic-war?sd=pf

it is difficult to know what is true and what isn't but news reports from the west seem to indicate that the west has been harder hit by sanctions than Russia in terms of cost of living. I am in the west and have seen my bills increase, and all around me are people negatively affected by sanctions.

There are also multiple reports about the China economy being in trouble, the US economy being in trouble, the UK situation is generally thought to be dire, but with all of this it is difficult to know what is correct and what isn't

As to Russia's military again it depends on which sources you look at and whether you accept that Russia undertook a "special operation" as in the US definition of that which is "encompass the use of small units in direct or indirect military actions focused on strategic or operational objectives" Their stated objective was to use techniques which were slow but saved more lives both sides. This has been represented as a "crashing, splatting" disaster as you say, but at the same time, this is what propaganda and psych warfare is about so it is hard to know.

I have not been to Russia but I have read on MN what people who have been there as tourists say and many have raved about it, especially about Munich. In relation to an appalling difference between rich and poor, the UK is similar, as are many other countries.

There are vastly different accounts about what happened just before Feb 2022, the eight or so years previous. I am not sure how anyone is supposed to form conclusions.

‘I have not been to Russia but I have read on MN what people who have been there as tourists say and many have raved about it, especially about Munich. In relation to an appalling difference between rich and poor, the UK is similar, as are many other countries.’

That is your source of knowledge about Russia?! And Munich? What?
I don’t know how much they’re paying you but you’re not worth it.

How is Amnesty mention a giveaway?

I am not hurling insults at you, so could you refrain? I have not been at all disingenuous or dishonest at all.

You keep saying that if Russia had not invaded none of this would have happened. Russia said it went in because the international community were not taking action about what was happening in Donbas. If Russia had wanted to annex Donbas in 2014 it would have been easier than to wait eight years.

I don't know who caused the 100K deaths in Mariupol because I wasn't there but as I said there are conflicting allegations.

Charming. Not that is not my only source, it is an illustration. I am not being paid by anyone.

And Russia is not committing an illegal invasion ;)

@newnamenewnew it is hard to know what to believe when you won't face facts. On this thread we believe that Russia is a terrorist state that has invaded a sovereign nation. I for one will not be responding to any more of your posts.

I have not been to Russia but I have read on MN what people who have been there as tourists say and many have raved about it, especially about Munich. In relation to an appalling difference between rich and poor, the UK is similar, as are many other countries

An I missing something? What’s Munich got to do with Russian living standards?

Aren't you a Russian speaker?

I am quoting you from this very thread - you might have forgotton, that was 3 days ago. Seems like you not only understand Russian language but all its nuances, even better than a translator:

newnamenewnew · 03/09/2022 20:02
hbdgwalls · 03/09/2022 19:36
*without moving
The Russian language uses the same word in different contexts, far more so than English, which is why translating is tricky, so the reporter may have got the wrong meaning, but what I think he was saying was that it isn't just a matter of working hard, you have to work productively - along the lines of it is not what you do but how you do it. The parts of the speech I saw were perfectly congruent I think it is was just reported in that way to try to discredit

It must be difficult to keep on top of all the lies. Job hazard.

he/she's not bad though - subtle. But if you observe his/her posts over time you see the discrepancies and dishonesties.

It's how shills work. I suppose if this one packs his bags, another will come along!

I have only posted to correct bits of information which I have seen which I think are incorrect or incomplete. I haven't said anywhere anything about the UN motion back in Feb.