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Ukraine Invasion: Part 30

999 replies

MagicFox · 28/08/2022 09:05

We're now on our 30th thread, thanks as usual to all who contribute.

OP posts:
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Igotjelly · 21/09/2022 19:28

katem98 · 21/09/2022 19:26

Over 900 protesters have been detained and arrested in Russia tonight.

Was just reading this. I’m u sure whether that’s at all significant. It’s a drop in the ocean in terms of Russian population and I would imagine will be swiftly and brutally quashed.

minsmum · 21/09/2022 19:29

You are all much nicer than me, they had no compassion for the people of Ukraine, when they go on holiday to Europe they taunting Ukrainian refugees. They have a superiority complex. They need for their army to be soundly beaten and then undertake some serious soul searching as a nation. Maybe then they can be cautiously, very cautiously, welcomed back into the world

Igotjelly · 21/09/2022 19:31

minsmum · 21/09/2022 19:29

You are all much nicer than me, they had no compassion for the people of Ukraine, when they go on holiday to Europe they taunting Ukrainian refugees. They have a superiority complex. They need for their army to be soundly beaten and then undertake some serious soul searching as a nation. Maybe then they can be cautiously, very cautiously, welcomed back into the world

This does resonate.

Incidentally I remember visiting Berlin and being struck by how honestly and apologetic the majority of Germans are about their history.

MissConductUS · 21/09/2022 19:37

Incidentally I remember visiting Berlin and being struck by how honestly and apologetic the majority of Germans are about their history.

I recall right after the invasion in February, a Russian woman was quoted as saying something to the effect of "We will carry the shame of this for generations, just like the Germans". Let's hope Russia gets to the honesty phase as Germany did.

Mb76 · 21/09/2022 20:19

minsmum · 21/09/2022 19:29

You are all much nicer than me, they had no compassion for the people of Ukraine, when they go on holiday to Europe they taunting Ukrainian refugees. They have a superiority complex. They need for their army to be soundly beaten and then undertake some serious soul searching as a nation. Maybe then they can be cautiously, very cautiously, welcomed back into the world

completely agree. I’m done making excuses for them as a nation.

Igotjelly · 21/09/2022 20:46

Over 1300 arrests across Russia of protestors. Regardless of how I feel about Putin and his lot, and perhaps a large portion of the Russian population, these people are brave speaking against this.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 21/09/2022 20:55

OwlsDance · 21/09/2022 18:24

The ordinary Germans couldn't rescue themselves from the Nazis; they had to be rescued.

Yes, via a military defeat. Nazi regime fell because Germany lost, militarily. Which is what needs to happen in Ukraine as well.

I absolutely agree with this: the war-mongers of the hawk party need to be thoroughly defeated. Then maybe the more civilised Russians may get a chance to make the place less mediaeval over the next few decades.

MMBaranova · 21/09/2022 20:56

>these people are brave speaking against this.

They are, because at the moment the state can contain, arrest, charge and incarcerate. It can also shoot if necessary. It takes many more on the streets to become untouchable.

Russian people are not one monolithic block.

They also love their children too.

MagicFox · 21/09/2022 20:58

OwlsDance · 21/09/2022 18:24

The ordinary Germans couldn't rescue themselves from the Nazis; they had to be rescued.

Yes, via a military defeat. Nazi regime fell because Germany lost, militarily. Which is what needs to happen in Ukraine as well.

But the Nazis didn't have nuclear weapons and that does, unfortunately, change the face of things.

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RedToothBrush · 21/09/2022 21:03

Lushenko is apparently in Moscow.

EmeraldShamrock1 · 21/09/2022 21:05

Great news Russia has released 10 foreign prisoners of war captured through mediation from Saudi Arabia.

MissConductUS · 21/09/2022 21:06

Here's an opinion piece the WSJ just published.

Putin’s Desperate Ukraine Escalation - His new mobilization is an admission that Russia is losing the war.

By The Editorial Board
Sept. 21, 2022 2:36 pm ET

Vladimir Putin’s latest escalation in Ukraine is no show of strength. The military mobilization he announced on Wednesday, along with new nuclear threats, may mollify his hard-line critics in Russia for a while. But this won’t deter Ukraine from continuing its military offensive, and it shouldn’t deter the West from accelerating its military aid to Kyiv’s forces.

Mr. Putin announced what he called a “partial mobilization” that could be up to 300,000 reservists, which sounds impressive. But the call-up is an admission that the Kremlin’s campaign in Ukraine is failing and that its current forces are exhausted and inadequate.

The reservists aren’t battle-hardened troops who can immediately rush to the front-lines. They will need training, as many are former conscripts, not military professionals. The Russian Duma is passing a law to toughen punishment for evading mobilization and desertion, which suggests concern that many won’t show up or won’t fight if they do.

The partial call-up also falls far short of the full war footing, or a military draft, that would enlist the sons of Moscow and St. Petersburg elites. A draft would court more domestic opposition, as it becomes clear that what Mr. Putin calls his “special military operation” has jeopardized far more than the chance to eat at the now shuttered McDonald’s.

Mr. Putin also renewed his threat from earlier in the war to use nuclear weapons. The Kremlin is underscoring the threat by preparing to hold rushed referenda on whether four occupied regions in Ukraine should join the Russian Federation—Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia. Russia annexed Crimea in 2014 with a similar referendum. Mr. Putin uses these rigged votes to lend a veneer of legitimacy to his land grabs in Ukraine.

Mr. Putin’s implicit threat is that, if Ukraine continues to reclaim these territories, he will be justified in using a tactical nuke to defend what will now be the Russian homeland. The referenda will no doubt prevail because millions of pro-Ukraine voters have fled since Russia’s invasion in 2014 and again this year.

But no one other than Russia’s global toadies will recognize the votes as legitimate. Last year only 21% of Kherson residents and 32% of Zaporizhzhia residents described their attitude toward Russia as warm, according to a survey by the nonprofit International Republican Institute. Pluralities in both oblasts favored joining NATO. And that was before Russia began bombing Ukrainian cities.

The annexation also carries risks for Mr. Putin if Ukraine continues to take back territory. He will have to explain why his forces are losing land he has just declared is Russia’s. Perhaps he is prepared to use nuclear weapons, and the threat has to be taken seriously. But such a step would surely lead to even more NATO support for Ukraine and jeopardize what global support his war still has.

India’s Prime Minister gave Mr. Putin a public lecture on the war last week. Chinese support for Russia’s war is increasingly tepid, though it is still happy to buy oil and gas at a considerable discount. Turkey’s strongman Recep Tayyip Erdogan said this week Russia needs to leave Ukraine territory, including Crimea. Western Europe seems prepared to endure a cold winter with reduced Russian gas supplies.

All of this is a credit to Ukraine’s sacrifices and tenacity in resisting Russia far better than Western experts expected. It also vindicates U.S. military support for Kyiv, which was too slow in coming for months but is now making a decisive difference with the longer-range, precision Himars rocket system.

As Mr. Putin’s announcement shows, the war isn’t over. The Russian’s best option at this point would be to seek a negotiated settlement with Ukraine, but Kyiv understands that now is its best chance to drive Russia from its territory. A truce would give Russia time to consolidate its occupation and launch another assault in the future.

An early truce is also less likely the more the world learns about Russian atrocities in areas it occupied that are liberated by Ukraine. The latest evidence comes from the newly liberated town of Izyum, where Ukrainian investigators discovered mass graves. As in Irpin and Bucha outside of Kyiv, some of the corpses bear signs of torture. Ukrainians are justified in demanding war crime tribunals.

A truce is possible if Russia abandons its invasion and cedes the territory it has taken. Short of that, this is a moment to accelerate arms deliveries to Ukraine, including tanks, fighter jets, and the longer-range ATACMS missiles. This is the fastest route to persuading Mr. Putin that his invasion has failed and he needs to cut his losses.

Ijsbear · 21/09/2022 21:08

There are reports one young woman was killed in the protests.

I think they are very brave for protesting actually. They know what they are facing and for most of the men I imagine they'll be the first to be conscripted.

I don't think it's easy at all for a generation brought up by parents who had no power and who were afraid of the state because the state brutalized anyone who disagreed. In living memory there were Stalinist quotas for 'traitors' to be arrested by the police and sent to the Gulags, and records of literally passersby being shanghai'd and sent to the prison camps. An acquaintance of mine grew up in Siberia, the child of parents who'd had that experience. Fear of the state in Russia is well founded and goes back, if I'm right, for decades and even centuries.

There is something profoundly wrong in the society, but at the same time it seems to be a population that historically doesn't expect much from its governance except trouble. Many trouble makers get very rough treatment. 30 years since the fall of Communism is a drop in the ocean in a society deeply molded by repression and brutality.

MMBaranova · 21/09/2022 22:01

Saudi statement about prisoner release.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 30
minsmum · 21/09/2022 22:21

The Azov commander and deputy commander have been released as well

RedBea · 21/09/2022 22:26

I’m sure at some point this will rudely hit home for the Russian people. The people who’d rather turn a blind eye, when their husbands, sons, fathers are being called up as cannon fodders. Putin will send every last man & child. Something has got to happen soon.

MagicFox · 21/09/2022 22:27

Protestors are being forcibly conscripted right then and there

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Ijsbear · 21/09/2022 22:28

max seddon
@maxseddon
·
1m
Russians arrested at protests against Putin’s mobilization decree are reportedly getting called up into the army tonight, right in the police station [There we go]

Unconfirmed:
❗️From tomorrow, representatives of the military commissariats will be on duty at stationary traffic police posts. The traffic police will stop cars under the control of males, after which they will be sent to representatives of military registration and enlistment offices.

Apparently Russian telegram channels are ablaze with fury that the prisoner exchange happened. (perhaps the Kharkiv counteroffensive prisoners were exchanged for the Azovians?)

Ijsbear · 21/09/2022 22:29

RedBea · 21/09/2022 22:26

I’m sure at some point this will rudely hit home for the Russian people. The people who’d rather turn a blind eye, when their husbands, sons, fathers are being called up as cannon fodders. Putin will send every last man & child. Something has got to happen soon.

Except the young Peskov, of course.

minsmum · 21/09/2022 22:36

mobile.twitter.com/sternenko/status/1572698629294690304 video of some POWs returning to Ukraine

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/09/2022 22:45

People protesting against the war are immediately conscripted into the army?! What sort of an army does that create?

LoveLarry · 21/09/2022 22:57

minsmum · 21/09/2022 19:29

You are all much nicer than me, they had no compassion for the people of Ukraine, when they go on holiday to Europe they taunting Ukrainian refugees. They have a superiority complex. They need for their army to be soundly beaten and then undertake some serious soul searching as a nation. Maybe then they can be cautiously, very cautiously, welcomed back into the world

I'm with you

Have seen videos of the protests. Protesting because they're affected, because it's about them. Plus a handful of protesters and dozens of onlookers filming. Confused

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 21/09/2022 22:58

Won't that be a strategy to stop people protesting? Men will think twice about attending protests if they are forcibly conscripted immediately

katem98 · 21/09/2022 23:00

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 21/09/2022 22:58

Won't that be a strategy to stop people protesting? Men will think twice about attending protests if they are forcibly conscripted immediately

I think that's the point. I can imagine it prompting a bigger uproar within Russia but now, what will they be able to do about it?

Ijsbear · 21/09/2022 23:18

It'll stop the protests but won't quell the unhappiness. That will grow unless Russia can bring the war to a swift end which seems impossible. The population might become restive generally.

Mainly perhaps Russia will step back 50 years in terms of development and stability, economy and political ties with other major countries

Putin has been desperate to keep the city people on his side. That might not be easy now no matter what the TV is saying. This is, i suppose, a big failure for him in many ways.