NC because I'm ashamed of how I'm feeling

[MigraineLevel9000]

Please if you have 5 minutes to read and reply, I ask you to do so. I really need help.

Where to start 😩

I have the most clever, funny, interesting, soon to be 6 year old little girl.

She is also making me want to throw myself off a bridge.

I feel like I spend all of my time asking her over and over again to do the same basic, easy to do tasks. I ask her nicely, she won't do it. I repeat the request firmly, she won't do it. I make it very clear this is the last time I'll ask, she usually begrudgingly does what is asked if her. Something that should take 30 seconds turns into 15 minutes of nonsense.

She talks back to me, but she is erudite and has fantastic vocabulary, she would almost make you doubt that what you're asking her is reasonable. She has an answer to everything.

She is incredibly energetic and sporty, this isn't a laziness issue it is pure stubbornness.

She's sharp as a tack, very witty and likeable. She had good friends, is happy at school and achieves well. But her poor teacher 😩 the entire first year of school was constant messages home, being pulled aside at school pick up by her teacher with the days latest nonsense. With exactly the same complaints I suffer with at home.

Her teacher even said she almost feels gas lit some days, because my daughter is so polite and calm when she's openly defying you and point blank not listening to whatever is asked of her. You so question yourself!

The teacher also commented that she is doing remarkably well at school considering she often decides she's not doing the work, gets up from the table and walks off, generally being an imp. If she actually applied herself she would do incredibly.

She is kept entertained, in plenty of extracurricular clubs, she swims, she does ballet, she has lots of time at home doing crafts, loves to draw, but fuck me she is just a nightmare to live with.

I'm now at a stage of daily migraines, I dread spending the day with her. Isn't that awful? I feel sick typing it because I can't convey how much I love this child but I'm done in.

I've just put her in bed. She's asleep, I'm in tears on the sofa because yet again I've only gotten 1/10th of the things done today I needed to because every single step was met with pure opposition. It's like wading through mud.

Please, tell me I'm not alone, tell me it ends?

Better yet, tell me how the hell I make this better.

X

Neurodivergent in her 50s here with adhd, dyspraxia and dyslexia

Please believe me OP when I say you are setting your daughter up for a lifetime of painful relationships because she's getting a very mixed message from you.
I had an answer for everything at your daughters age and probably still do. I didn't realise until many years later that people who got into these long debates with me were actually annoyed.
Mentally I really enjoyed the discussion and didn't think they were mad or angry because they had engaged in the conversation.
People have already given much sound advice on how to be clear with your daughter and that means you must stop what you are doing.

I also have problems transitioning from one activity to another. Did your daughter know what time you were going out? Did she know when she got up? Did she know when she started the activity?

I have time blindness so I don't understand 10 minutes and I will always underestimate how long it takes me to do things.

You could help your daughter by writing a plan for the day in the morning with her knowing the times of days she needs to do xyz and remind her of the times before she starts activities.

Also balance up the schedule by giving her time in the day to do whatever she wants with as few limitations as possible. With the caveat of course she needs to finish at x time.

Is her teacher new to teaching? I'm surprised your dd is being allowed to get away with so much. It's not cute or funny and should not be tolerated. Your daughter needs to learn how to discipline herself and the teacher needs to help her.

I agree with this. I’m a teacher and I hope I make every parent feel I adore their child but I find it strange the teacher admits feeling ‘gaslit’ she needs to take control!

Where’s her younger sister in all this? What impact is this having on her?

There could be additional needs or there might not but she sounds very aware of how in control she is and how interested you are in hearing her long drawn out replies. You need to get the control back. If she doesn’t do what you ask then warn of a consequence, ask again then deliver the consequence and don’t back down but have something nice ready for her sister so she doesn’t suffer.

Ive been teaching for 20 years and in the last few years I’ve noticed an increase in children who are very used to being listened to at the expense of everyone else and are aren’t used to getting on and joining without their personal needs being met. The parents are often like you, very well meaning, describing the child as ‘a character’, ‘wild’, ‘cheeky’ etc. What I can never understand is why they think these ‘characters’ should dominate classes with quieter children being overlooked.

I would read this book “How to talk so kids will listen and how to listen so kids will talk” great tips in there on how to get your child to do things without commanding them all the time

She sounds just like my niece. Incredibly bright and charming, could talk rings around everyone, and absolutely exhausting and had an answer for everything.

DN also has ADHD and is now being assessed for autism as an adult. Still absolutely lovely but not always the easiest person for her mom to deal with.

It might be worth pushing for an assessment before she gets labelled the naughty child.

I have no advice on how to deal with the behaviour, none of us ever figured it out with DN!

Had she always been like this? Has it got worse since baby arrived?

It sounds utterly exhausting!!

It sounds tiring, OP.

It also sounds like lots of children her age. I don't necessarily think it is due to a potential diagnosis. I have taught primary for close to 30 years and like Angelic seen lots of children like your DD. Despite being very precocious in some ways, I would say she lacks maturity and self-awareness. These may develop in time with the right instruction and guidance (yep, needs to be taught explicitly to many children).

With pupils in school, I have used 'social stories' to reinforce messages about cooperation and following instructions etc. If you're not familiar with this concept, I recommend looking into it. I basically create a very simply structured cartoon / illustrated story featuring the pupil doing 'the right thing' in a specific situation with a positive outcome, e.g. everyone feeling happy and respected and the task getting done on time. In many cases, these have been really successful.

I would also recommend getting a bit 'emotionally real' with your daughter. You are crying alone, even name changing here as you seem to feel that your authentic emotional response is somehow inappropriate. It isn't, you're entitled to it, and I'd go as far as to say it might be constructive. Obviously not a huge emotional outburst at your DD, but I would definitely permit yourself to show irritation and frustration at your DD's stringing things out, and to get properly cross with her. Set and defend your boundaries and yes, do let her see you cross when she is trying to dominate and override them. You sound as if you are trying to be incredibly reasonable all the time. But the problem is that your DD isn't reasonable, she's unreasonable. As Brecon has shared, quite enlighteningly, she didn't realise people around her were annoyed or irritated with her when engaging in wranglings.

I don't want to pile on, but, yeah, you are answering her questions too much. It's giving attention to behavior you are trying to extinguish. You need to give an instruction, a warning, a consequence. I agree she sounds very bright but right now she's actually developing a habit that does not work to her long-term interests, the habit of procrastination, and of using her copious intelligence to get out of work instead of to get the appropriate work done. Very hard to break that habit.

Now, I have a kid like this (some of what I'm telling you is stuff I learned the hard way) and I do think some of these neurodiverse kids cannot really cope with all the many and varied activities that modern life requires all the time. Kids now are much busier than I was when I was a child (in my opinion). If she's constantly having to stop her coloring because you have yet another errand to run or activity to take her too, or food she dislikes that she must eat, or pills she must take for this or that condition, eventually it will wear down her ability to comply because complying with your instructions is hard work for her. So in some areas, you might have to let things go, so that you can ensure you get compliance in the most critical areas. But the key is to do it in a planned way, not an ad hoc way where you are giving in to her demands or to wheedling. For example, you can observe from a quiet place and make an assessment about how many daily transitions she can handle before she starts being unable to manage, and then modify your schedule to ensure you aren't asking her to do more than she's able (you can modify your assessment later if you feel you estimated too many things or too few things she could handle that day). That way you can get into a routine where she can succeed at complying with your requests.

Think also about whether there is any problem-solving that needs to be done around this. Does she avoid getting her shoes on because she cannot fasten the straps? Because other children in her class fasten their straps themselves and she feels awkward? Because her socks are too small? Because she cannot tell which shoe goes on which foot? Sometimes a refusal to comply signals the child is struggling with a more basic skill that is necessary to complete the task.

Similar to my autistic daughter too. In my experience, teachers aren't very good at spotting the signs for girls. Maybe worth a read up on it. If you are on fb a very good group is called colouring outside the lines. Lots of really helpful mum's supporting each other.

A lot of ASD kids won't engage in a subject if they aren't interested or doesn't make sense to them. For an example, my DD won't discuss religion as she sees it as absurd people would worship and believe in a magical person that created the world rather than science.

My children don't have autism and this is still what I did (minus visual reminder). I think it is helpful for most children.

I think you mentioned weekly ballet and swimming classes in your OP.

these are usually ran with the instructor firmly in charge , giving continual sequence of tasks children follow with removal from the group if unable or unwilling to follow them due to safety (or teacher’s unwillingness to be challenged.

I know it’s not the same as home, only a short class etc but if your daughter had the diagnoses other posters are describing to be uncontrollable, surely you’d see this at swimming and ballet too?

Teaching experience here too. Totally agree with a previous poster about pupils’ expecting their individual needs to be met at the expense of group cohesion or other less demonstrative pupils, and struggling when given developmental feedback they don’t like. Listening to others & following basic instructions seems so much harder for quite a few regardless of non-confrontational delivery.
Basic example: Me: ‘pupil X - you’ve had guidance and warning about consequence, but You’re still continually speaking over me, X pupils can’t follow the lesson, and I’m not going to let that continue, so you need to move/leave the room for everyone’s benefit.’ Cue pupil kicking off and significant admin/other teacher time to deal with aftermath.

I wonder if your daughter would benefit from the ‘reward’ of little jobs to do and bits of appropriate responsibility , given to her when she follows your instructions .

I was also going to mention PDA as a pp said

There will be a lot more and all children are different so you may not recognise the following in your DD but some of my daughters characteristics are:

Poor sleep but appears wide awake and alert at 2am in the morning!
Sensory issues: clothing \ smells \ noises
Inappropriate comments to people \ strangers eg... You have a messy house \ fat belly \ massive spot on your nose
Makes noises whilst concentrating
Arm flapping \ circling feet \ when very small obsessed with things that go round...washing machine, wheels
Absorbed in whatever favourite interest at the time
Loved playdoh, sensory toys and lights
Affectionate but can be inappropriately affectionate to strangers
Makes you belly laugh several times a day with her wit and observations
Asks a zillion questions a day

Unfortunately this is what pp and myself are referring to when we say teachers aren't knowledgeable about autism in girls.

I understand your points 're taking time from the other children but where do you expect the ASD girls to go? The whole system needs to change so ALL kids can gain an education.

My 10 year old dd very much has a mind of her own and likes to do her own thing. Interestingly as a result I generally find her okay at home, or at least no worse than her sister who is very different. I let her amuse herself at home, as she was happy doing this. When she was younger they found her difficult at school.

The main thing I find with her is that she has to be in control, so to get her to do things I always used to count when she was younger so she was in control of exactly when. Sometimes I still do this.

She hated ballet cos she didn’t want to do the same dances as everyone else 😂😂. She now does competitive swimming because she loves racing and recreational gymnastics (she’s very good but not easily trainable).

I think the main thing is to set firm boundaries and not negotiate personally.

She has got much better as she’s got older, has strategies to avoid problems and is currently a happy child with plenty of friends who is doing okay —what she has to do— at school.

There are also positives in the long run. She is very determined as well as stubborn and she is single minded/ led by no one.

PDA is not a diagnosis just a description of a behaviour. A behaviour which is pretty normal for children her age is they are left to get away with it.

Definitely pandering to your child. Give no options to do anything other than the tasks that need to be done before you go, if there is spare time after doing tasks, then they can do colouring or whatever then.

I actually hand responsibility to be on time to leave to mine. So they can clearly see a clock. Know that we have to go at x. And know what has to be done before we go - and that they can do what they like in any extra time left over before we go. They usually nag me to finish washing up or whatever.

This could be my son you’re describing, he’s 20 now and still the most infuriating person I know. He’s totally NT, but he’s also highly highly intelligent.

@JudgeRindersMinder

but does your son behave that way with everyone though? With his tutors if at college/uni or bosses if he works? Or just when’s he with you when he knows he can get away with it

Trust me, other adults don’t think she’s funny or interesting. There were a few children like this when mine were growing up. One has since had a SEN diagnosis but most were exploiting a lack of firm boundaries or consequences for their poor behaviour.

Some kids need really firm boundaries as it helps them feel more secure. I think you’ve had some good suggestions already so good luck with any changes you make.

Give no options to do anything other than the tasks that need to be done before you go

Thats another one actually. ‘Right dd2 what are you going to do first? Brush your teeth or get dressed?’

Another one that worked was reverse psychology, ‘I’m going to go and get dressed, you can’t do that as fast as me though so I’ll be ready first’. Probably someone will say that is bad in some way but it used to have her scuttling around to prove me wrong.

Way too much dialogue in your example.
ignore bad behaviour, don’t enter into the dialogue and say you will discuss when you are out of the house/in the car.
all her questions will be answered when you are on your way, so don’t give them oxygen before.

It’s all coming back 🤦🏻‍♀️

What a fantastic post Eve! Much better put than I managed to!

OP, one of my own children was similar to you describe and she’s caused me such upset at times yet I love her so much. I agree about sharing the impact of her behaviour has on you, not in a heavy way but to let her know the consequences of her actions. You are not helping her by shielding her that she is upsetting others. If she’s made her teachers day hard then let her know and why, presumably she’s made other children’s day hard. Doesn’t have to be heavy but ‘When you wouldn’t start your work today you stopped Mrs X from helping your friends with their work. Now your friends will feel sad they didn’t get help because she was too busy with you.’ I think we worry about upsetting our children too much today. If you don’t tell her she’s going to struggle with friends.

As I said in a previous post, I’ve noticed a real shift in how parents view their children’s behaviour. I’ve seen children who their parents would describe them as confident, clever and articulate, who have shrivelled into themselves next to less clever children who have the social awareness they lack. As the previous poster said, it does need teaching.

Finally Op don’t be hard on yourself. I struggle with my child and I’m a teacher! I’ve found since she’s the consequence of listening to me (getting more time later to do what she wants, getting lots of praise, being trusted to do things herself) she’s started to want to help me more.

@LuckySantangelo35 he did at school, he had to be given extension work by every teacher he had as he would whizz through his work then disrupt other children because he was bored.
He had an apprenticeship now, and has a brilliant relationship with his boss and his college tutors Nina lot of him too-I think he’s just found his groove now.

He’s still a pain with me, although I know that’s partially because we’re very alike!

I think we worry about upsetting our children too much today

this! She needs to be told that her behaviour is naughty and not ok and that is upsets and inconveniences people and that it will cause trouble for her and make her friendships hard… because that’s the truth.

If she gets upset well maybe that’s a good thing because it shows she’s understand and this more likely to modify her behaviour