NC because I'm ashamed of how I'm feeling

[MigraineLevel9000]

Please if you have 5 minutes to read and reply, I ask you to do so. I really need help.

Where to start 😩

I have the most clever, funny, interesting, soon to be 6 year old little girl.

She is also making me want to throw myself off a bridge.

I feel like I spend all of my time asking her over and over again to do the same basic, easy to do tasks. I ask her nicely, she won't do it. I repeat the request firmly, she won't do it. I make it very clear this is the last time I'll ask, she usually begrudgingly does what is asked if her. Something that should take 30 seconds turns into 15 minutes of nonsense.

She talks back to me, but she is erudite and has fantastic vocabulary, she would almost make you doubt that what you're asking her is reasonable. She has an answer to everything.

She is incredibly energetic and sporty, this isn't a laziness issue it is pure stubbornness.

She's sharp as a tack, very witty and likeable. She had good friends, is happy at school and achieves well. But her poor teacher 😩 the entire first year of school was constant messages home, being pulled aside at school pick up by her teacher with the days latest nonsense. With exactly the same complaints I suffer with at home.

Her teacher even said she almost feels gas lit some days, because my daughter is so polite and calm when she's openly defying you and point blank not listening to whatever is asked of her. You so question yourself!

The teacher also commented that she is doing remarkably well at school considering she often decides she's not doing the work, gets up from the table and walks off, generally being an imp. If she actually applied herself she would do incredibly.

She is kept entertained, in plenty of extracurricular clubs, she swims, she does ballet, she has lots of time at home doing crafts, loves to draw, but fuck me she is just a nightmare to live with.

I'm now at a stage of daily migraines, I dread spending the day with her. Isn't that awful? I feel sick typing it because I can't convey how much I love this child but I'm done in.

I've just put her in bed. She's asleep, I'm in tears on the sofa because yet again I've only gotten 1/10th of the things done today I needed to because every single step was met with pure opposition. It's like wading through mud.

Please, tell me I'm not alone, tell me it ends?

Better yet, tell me how the hell I make this better.

X

Btw, youngest DD will be 16 next week. Utterly thriving. Doing well at school, popular, funny, still super-smart and an absolute delight.

She sounds a lot like my 6 year old who has ADHD but is also G&T in some areas.

Your example of her not wanting to stop colouring so you can leave is exactly like my child - they really struggle with transitioning from one task to the next and it often comes out as rudeness or disobedience. I bought a cheap timer off Amazon and now say things like ‘ok you have 3 mins to finish. When the timer goes off, you need to stop. Every minute that you continue, is a minute less that you will be allowed to colour tomorrow.’

My child is also a nightmare for getting an idea stuck in their head and letting it go. So this morning, they wanted to pull out a suitcase from under the bed to see what was in it. However many times I said no (‘it’s empty, it’s dusty, you will make a mess, it’s not interesting, it’s not yours, please leave it alone’) they just wouldn’t stop or listen and could find a million reasons why they needed to pull it out.

My daughter is similar. It’s exhausting. Two things that have helped me:

1. to explain why you’re asking them to do something/consequences;
2. to remember I AM THE ADULT. Easy to forget when your mini-me is running rings.

My daughter’s compliance is better when the routine/boundaries are very clear, ie when I am more strict. It is important that she understands the consequences of non compliance - generally there’s no time to do the good stuff abd I lose my s@#t. There are only so many hours in the day after all.

Her father is very much the same. He can be so effing unhelpful sometimes! He’s learning too.

keep strong! You’ll get there.

Some girls with autism are good at masking to fit in. They might copy how others behave. More and more females are being diagnosed as adults. They say they weren't understood at school. There's also oppositional defiance disorder.

It might be ODD but she doesn't have the hostility or the tantrums.

I think it's just very bright 5/6 year old girl syndrome, on steroids. Possibly mixed in with jealousy or insecurity over the baby. Are there siblings between her and the baby or has she been an only child up to the arrival of the baby?

The problem with the example of exhausting behaviour you posted was far too much yakking on your part.

If you plan to go out, then you need to give a five minute warning, followed by a two minute warning, followed by taking away whatever she's doing. Don't engage in any conversations. Look at your watch. Hurry her out the door when she finally gets her act together.

Better still, set a kitchen timer to ding, and use phrases like 'It's time to...' or 'It's supermarket time...' There's no arguing with a kitchen timer. Point to it, tell her 'It's time'.

What she is getting out of the encounter you describe is your engagement and your full attention. Stop giving her that. Tell her you are not discussing the matter. Then no matter how brilliant her remarks are, stop discussing the matter.

There should be consequences for her behaviour too.
Tell her once to do something. After that, take whatever she is doing and put it up. She gets a choice between doing what she is told or an early night. No more "asking nicely" three times. She is a child under all that cleverness and the wide vocabulary. She needs to know that she's not on your level, that you are in charge. It will make her happier to feel the security that comes from that.

Stop the nice extra curriculars if her behaviour doesn't improve. There should be one class missed each week if her teacher reports that she has been acting up in class. If she does it again the next week then she misses two activities.

Justsaynonow's post has some terrific advice.

I really do think this sounds like every kid in my family (all NT). They only get a move on when they really really want to do something. DD has to have a snack, she needs to find her dolly, she needs to bring her purse in case she wants to buy something and on and on. She’s 2. I expect this to get more argumentative as her vocab expands. I’ve watched numerous children argue like little lawyers

try a timer, we use it sometimes, it gets a grump when it goes off but it lets her know how much time she has. And stop engaging with the conversation. It’s all too wordy. If I were her teacher I would be removing her from the class for timeouts if she is disrupting lesson time.

tbh it all sounds a bit mad.

Sorry haven't read it all and need to get up in a few minutes. But this sounds a bit like DS was (18 scarily bright ) and to some extent me and if I'm honest my DM. I don't know if we are all autistic, no one has a diagnosis. Because my brain is the same I would have shared with 6yo DS the plan for the day, including leaving times, which shop we were going to, what I needed to buy there all these things would have been up for discussion . He and I have never been able to accept "do as I say without explanation" or " I know best because I am the adult". Luckily I didn't encounter much authoritarian parenting as a child, but could still talk my way out of things (often successfully) into my 20's. Because my DM is the same my DM always explained everything to me growing up. We too are 3 early speakers with wide vocabularies......

I'm another one who thought neurodiversity of some kind, specifically autism or PDA. Both of them often include an overpowering need to be in control, especially with the female presentation.

And I speak as a woman in her 40s, not long diagnosed as autistic and as having ADHD.

My DS diagnosed as autistic when he was 4. His twin sister wasn't diagnosed until she was 10 - and there were plenty of "professionals" who dismissed the idea until she got in front of experts on female autism. When she was tested she scored very very highly, absolutely no question about her diagnosis - but she had been missed by everyone for years, health visitors, teachers, doctors. No one suspected a thing because female autism looks different.

It was my daughter's diagnosis that made me look closer at myself. She presents very differently than her twin brother. I realised I understood her in ways that no one else did because I am exactly the same.

She can be exhausting because she insists she knows things when it can't possibly be the case. Daft example, "Oh, we're going to pick Daddy up from work tonight" - bearing in mind I had never, ever picked up DP from work before. DD "Oh, yes, I guessed that we'd probably be doing that." Her need to feel in control is overwhelming and that means doing things on her schedule.

Understanding that the behaviours are anxiety-driven can help. So DD isn't trying to "get one up" on the adults, but if she doesn't feel in control her anxiety spirals. For us, giving a required outcome but letting her figure out how to get to that point works. Also understanding that you don't need to battle a child for control - it's not a fight, and you're the adult. But you can choose whether something is important enough to be done exactly how you want.

So for example: dinner. DD is hungry and wants her dinner but won't come quickly when I tell her dinner is on the table. She insists on faffing around in the bathroom for a bit. So I call her a few minutes earlier than I would otherwise, knowing it's going to take her longer to come down. And also, if her dinner is a bit cooler than would be otherwise ideal - that's up to her.

Your example with the colouring - you've been sucked into explaining/arguing and that never ends well. Timer on the table - "in 5 minutes this timer will go off and you need to be waiting by the door with your shoes on. Carry on colouring for now if you want, but when this timer goes off, we're leaving". Then walk away. I don't negotiate and I allow DD control which reduces her anxiety - but we have clear outcomes. When that timer goes off we are absolutely leaving, whether she's wearing or carrying her shoes. I never say anything I don't mean, and I never, ever issue empty threats. With ADHD time blindness is common, so it might be helpful to pop back and give another warning at three minutes, or two minutes.

Also managing the activities/timing worked for us. If I gave DS time to play before we left in the morning, stopping an activity to leave would be hugely problematic. Transitioning from one activity to another can be hard for autistics, and if she has ADHD, hyper focus is a thing - which means you have a BURNING need to continue with what you're interested in to the detriment of anything else (I forget to eat sometimes). I'm not sure giving your DD colouring to do before you leave for school in the morning is the best idea.

Sorry, this is all a bit of a brain dump as I'm thinking it through. Your child may not be neurodiverse but girls are missed so, so often. People on here insisting that their DD is like it and isn't autistic maybe just don't know that their DD is autistic! It is a possibility.....girls are unbelievably under-diagnosed. It was never ever raised as a possibility for me - but now looking back it's so bloody obvious!

And I can see myself in some things you say about your DD - as a child I can recall not being willing to do something unless it made sense to me. I would very politely answer back to adults and point out flaws in their arguments. I was well-behaved in school but that's because their requests made sense and it was a routine.

Your DD may have ADHD rather than autism - again, look up the signs of ADHD in girls. It's different to the "naughty boys" perception that most people have.

I'm definitely not suggesting that she absolutely IS neurodiverse but there are some flags here which are strongly suggestive that it may be the case. And to answer a PP, the reason why it helps to know is that the way you approach her behaviour may be different. If it's anxiety-driven (which is often the case with autism/ADHD etc - even if there are no other signs of anxiety), then it needs a different approach to a child who's just bossy and likes to get their own way. And if your child is PDA, then that's a WHOLE different ball game and the usual approaches will be utterly futile. Understanding what's going on really does matter but finding someone who's an expert in female neurodiversity is like finding a needle in a haystack. Experts primed to look out for typical symbols will frequently miss female autism, ADHD etc.

What @Goldencup says is also really good and something I do with DD. Her anxiety and need to control lessens when she understands the plan, and exactly how things will pan out. We use photos if we're going somewhere new or different, as again, it reduces that undercurrent of anxiety which drives this type of avoidant and controlling behaviour. As I said in part of my post, when I was a child I would only do things which made sense to me - so this approach really helps.

What a needlessly shitty message.

The poster was remarking that what was previously difficult about her child will now be channeled into being great in her chosen career.

You taking issue with that is absolutely bizarre.

She sounds very clever but is constantly trying to manipulate to have things her way. Also like she thinks she's in charge she is 5 though and you are the parent, you and the teacher should have authority. You have warned and asked her nicely, if she tries to manipulates it's ok to say no more questions and never mind about that and what I'm getting from the shop etc. We have to go now and if you are good and listen I will let you post your card tomorrow, if not too bad you don't get to post it at all. I worked so hard on this my friend is unwell (they might die by tomorrow😉?) Put it away now or I will take it off you. Follow through. You can't always be the good guy when it comes to kids sometimes what you say goes and it's not up for negotiation (because you have to get things done and have many obligations and responsibilities) I think sometimes you have to let them know in a firm and loving way you make the decisions and it's not up for discussion, it totally must be exhausting for you. My son is clever he is 9 and academically he has already surpassed me in many things sometimes trys be be too big for his boots when it comes to the household and decisions he shouldn't be getting involved in but he damn well knows mum and dad is still in charge, we have to shut down any manipulation and negotiations sometimes and say no more questions this is what's happening.

This sounds just like my DS 5
So I do a mixture of things, if going somewhere I set a clock so he can see the timer going down (no one likes a video cut off half way).
I do a reward based star chart which has the main things on (brush teeth , make bed ect)
I also am ashamed to admit that if he is really naughty I just openly ignor him , he LOVES attention , I would say craves it from everyone he meets, so I just don't speak to him until he calms down and that works ... I generally do that as a last resort

In the nicest way possible, she's not actually being challenged for her behaviour. If you and her teacher are having problems with her following instructions, stop repeating yourself. Say her name, give the instruction and expect her to actively listen: if she is extremely bright, she should have no issue listening to a basic instruction. Make clear that you will not repeat yourself. Then follow up with a consequence if she has ignored you or argued with you. Try to divert the conversation to something else to make it very clear that there will be no discussion/negotiation and if she tries, don't engage in it. I'm sure you will feel rude ignoring it, but she is being rude in trying to domineer you.
Think about the impact this will have down the line, with friendships and in school, if she is allowed to continue to control everything. If she is allowed to derail an entire school day - how would you feel as a parent of a quiet child in that class? If a child in my class (secondary) were continually disrupting with off-task talk or trying to barter their way out of what I'd asked them to do, they would be given consequences based on the number of times they had disrupted the lesson, or removed to minimise the disruption to the class as a whole.
My 2 year old is on the autistic diagnostic pathway and he still has boundaries, consequences and expectations of him: we teach him these things because we love him and want him to understand how to behave in social situations and not become overwhelmed by them. Whether she is autistic or not, she is clearly very highly functioning and capable of understanding the impact her actions have on others.

Absolutely agree with this. She’s playing you OP. Lots of kids will do this if they think they can get away with it - which she clearly is.

OP, I've hurried downstairs especially to respond...

I'm autistic. Mother of an autistic daughter. Daughter of an autistic mother and father. Grandmother of an autistic ten year old.

If your little one isn't autistic, she's probably neurodivergent in some way. I thought of PDA at first, and someone's mentioned it already.

She's not rude, lazy or lacking in clear instruction. She's not even a smart-arse, though by goodness, it will feel like it.

Your example, the colouring... it's fixed thinking (it's not a choice. She can't help it). She's started a cycle (colour, envelope) and has to finish it. You can tear her away from that but it will be physically as well as emotionally painful - and frustrating - for her. I feel pain now, identifying with the situation. She needs to finish that work. [Try giving her a time limit - your ten minute warning is great but how about 'I need you to be ready with your shoes on by 10.15 because that is when we are all leaving the house.' ]

She can articulate her needs, that's great. Pursue a diagnosis, because we don't want that little one squashing, being dismissed - or worse, treated as an enemy - by teachers and other adults who aren't making reasonable accommodations for her needs.

By constantly reiterating things she has learned to ignore you. You have become white noise. Tell her once, then if she doesn't do it the consequences start. If she is so bright she'll soon pick it up.

Hi op, your longer message describing your dd's calm reaction to your asking her to put her coloring away chimes massively with one of the very prominent traits my 10 yo has. It's as though she is able to zone out and disregard the situation and carry on like we're just having a normal casual chat when the reality is I'm run ragged trying to get everyone out the door. It's incredibly frustrating. My dd has other traits, and after having been referred to camhs nearly a year ago for anxiety / school refusal, is now on the waiting list to be assessed for ASD.

Genuinely could have written every single word of this myself.

My 6 year was diagnosed with ADHD and executive dysfunction earlier this year.

This.

If she's not done it.gathwr up the pencils.explain that sometimes you have to do things that mummy says now.dont dialogue.let her tantrum.most parents are experiencing tantrums but maybe that's because their child is working through being told no.working through what boundaries mean.
your always working with her to do it her way.
She needs to understand no.for her benefit mostly Too!
Don't get envelopes.
Go to the shop YOU said.
She constantly feel valid.
No tantrums very clever and nice because your woekingvwith her like a colleague
Try just no.paretntal walks will keep her safe in the end.rigjt now she's actually floundering on navigating instruction.shell send herself crazy trying to do all these steps because noones saying STOP. Noones instructing her guiding her.
Also could you sometimes phrase it very casually.instead of instruction more like it's to help you out.so can you do this as I'm really struggling. Or help me out with this chore will you.
Give two options both to your requirement.
You need to have less conversation.

Because she’s so smart and because of her personality traits you’ve described you probably haven’t had to discipline her as much as a typical child. You've felt you could negotiate rather than tell her off.

However, her ignoring you is being naughty and id be going back to basics and putting her in time out. It might sound ridiculous at her age but she knows currently there is no consequences if she doesn’t listen 🤷‍♀️

Agree
Currently she is being allowed to enter into a back and forth argument with zero consequences.
I used 123 Magic.
1-shoes on, we are going out
2-shoes on
3-shoes on, remove colouring
It rarely got to 3 and most times it was 1.

This was age 3/4 and by 6 they just put their shoes on, coats on etc as they knew what to do.
This constant argument about daily stuff is absolutely exhausting.
So no argument , broken record technique, put a limit of 3 times, then consequences.
Back chat or rudeness-serious consequence no party etc
I dont mean to be unkind but its not funny or
a sign of intelligence that she does this, its a 6 year old who isnt being dealt with firmly.

Way too much dialogue and allowing her to decide what’s happening.

A sand timer could work well. You get her attention and put the sand timer on the table and say - when the sand timer is finished, you need to put your shoes on. As soon as it’s finished, you ask her calmly and firmly to put her shoes on. If she does the but ……. You ask her again to put her shoes on and if she doesn’t, you will remove the colouring book. She either puts her shoes on or the book goes.

All the constant conversation sounds exhausting - stop allowing it to go on and on.

I have behaviour like this from my 6 year old. Have you ever told your daughter you know exactly what she is trying to do and that she is procrastinating to try and avoid doing the task you have asked her?

You have described your daughter as an intelligent girl who has a good level of understanding. When my daughter uses tac tics such as this I say to her ‘ what you are doing now is making up excuses to avoid doing what I have asked you to do’ - we are going to school now so you need to get your shoes on. If she try’s to continue with the tac tics I say “ this is called procrastination I have asked you to get your shoes on” I do not get sucked into a conversation with her and give an answer back to everything she says. If you do this you are engaging with her behaviour. Lots of positive praise when she has done as you have asked and pick up the conversation AFTER she has done what you are asking her to do.

hope this helps.

It sounds like my very clever 3DCs- two are on long waiting list for ADHD and my eldest has just been diagnosed with moderate to severe ADHD (and consultant believes he is also on ASD spectrum )The leaving a wake of disaster behind her rings bells for me!!

Adhd questions for 6-12 yo behaviour we were asked in adhd assessment were are
Constant fidgeting
Running everywhere where it's inappropriate
Unable to sit still
Excessive talking (hours and hours)
Jumping from topic to topic constantly when talking
Seeming to listen (even responding) but looking blank
Unable to follow instructions
Constantly moving
Being very distractible (but sometimes hyper focusing)
Quick temper/ easily frustrated (ie over reacting)
Disruptive behaviour at times at school
Constantly in the go like they are super charge powered
Forgetting things constantly that ought be part of routine

There's a level of normal awkward preschool toddler behaviour but if behaviour is showing in two environments school and home then worth looking it up- you can read internet (free) screening tests for ADHD and Autism (being on spectrum is next what people imagine autism at it's more familiar severe presentation is) . It's a long road to get a diagnosis but will help - and get extra support at school extra time in exams etc

All my DCs have needed to use strategies (& me and I am oh so tired!!) to deal with life and school. They work extra hard to do so well

All 3 of my DCs "answer back"/ argue over every request looking for loopholes to not do simple things asked to- it's exhausting as nothing is straight forward!

Don't assume as I was told by 3 different teachers that my son couldn't have adhd as he did too well academically and he wouldn't be able to if he had adhd - whilst they also complained he never sat still never stopped talking ..disrupted the class .. !! The ADHD consultant said many teachers don't understand ADHD and many miss the signs. I'm so angry that I didn't insist on getting DCs teated when young as it became our normal.