If you tend to vote conservative can I ask a few questions - let’s keep it light and respectful!

[Holidayhavanas]

Full disclosure I tend to vote Labour, but I’m really interested to know if you tend to vote for the tories, what is your reasoning behind. the real shortage of qualified public sector workers for example teachers, social workers, police. A health service and education system on it’s knees. Police forces like Manchester and Met in special forces. I think that it’s symptomatic of years of underfunding. I work in the public sector and feel on a daily basis that the country is absolutely screwed. I assume most tory supporters would say it’s down to austerity but I feel it’s ideological cutting back on public funding. I’mgenuinely open to hear other views as I find it so depressing and just hope that it’s something I am missing. Let’s try and keep this respectful 😊

@MsFrenchie and @Enb76, neither of you bothered to read my link, did you? PFI is a different issue, I thought we were talking about revenue spending, not capital investment.

And Amazon’s tax evasion? Here you go - and it’s not the Guardian.

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/amazon-tax-avoidance-luxembourg-proft-shifting-b1898781.html

You didn’t read your own link, did you? It’s about a completely legal tax avoidance scheme, yet you have mentioned evasion, which is illegal.

This is the problem with people making these complaints, they seem unable to understand even the basics of how corporations are taxed, and are getting annoyed of their incorrect understanding, not of reality.

It’d be helpful if those angry at the amount of tax paid by companies such as Apple and Amazon could explain which taxes they think are being unfairly avoided, and what they should be getting taxed on.

Not me - profits are what makes my pension worth anything. I'd rather see tax breaks for companies that properly re-invest profits in their employees wage packets, pensions and training. I don't think that anyone in full-time work, regardless of the sort of work they are doing, should have to rely on the state. I do think there is an injustice in wages where people at the top earn obscene amounts while those cleaning the offices are relying on state benefits to survive.

You call it avoidance @MsFrenchie, I call it evasion. As you say, it’s legal, I think it shouldn’t be and that it’s a loophole that should be closed.

Yes, as I said, you don’t seem to understand the difference between the two, which is one of the reasons that it annoys you.

I’d not be surprised to find that you engage in tax avoidance too, but tell yourself that it’s different, and so OK. You might have an ISA, or a pension, or have bought something duty-free.

This is, sadly, very common, individuals who’ll use all tax mitigation routes open to them and then get upset when other people or organisations do the same.

Are you alleging that Amazon are breaching the transfer pricing regulations, or proposing that profits should be made where a sale happens? If the latter, how would you propose to make up the massive hole that we’d get in the UK accounts caused by losing the corporation tax on UK companies that sell overseas?

The last couple of paragraphs hold out some glimmers of hope. Briefly, the G7 countries have tentatively agreed on a common minimum corporate tax floor of c15%, and are talking about how profits are allocated to countries for taxation.

Fully understand the difference between turnover and profit @MsFrenchie . Not gonna to spend hours trawling for stats but here’s some not from the Guardian:

Apple paid just £9m in tax in the UK last year (2020) even as the tech giant pulled in sales of more than £1.1bn. In recently filed accounts the iPhone maker’s two UK subsidiaries — Apple Retail UK and Apple UK — posted revenue of £1.1bn and £372m respectively in 2020. Pre-tax profit for the divisions came in at £31m and £44m for the year to 29 September.

Now if pre-tax profit is only £44m on £1.1bn sales, wouldn’t you say that’s a remarkably low profit for a company valued at $2.4 trillion?

I find the attacks really off putting - it doesn’t do Labour / left any favours

Why no criticism of the Right and their personal attacks on Labour and in particular Starmer...... he has had to put up with some awful name calling & slurs from Johnson and now from Liz Truss.

Its almost as if Labour are held to a higher standard than the Conservatives.

But I’ve been talking about this site, along with others who have noticed the same, where it is prevalent and has created an echo chamber effect

This does sound encouraging

I’m sure it is slow progress and hard to implement

As a lighthearted note I was on a jury service recently for high end fraud and I noticed how many witnesses resided in Bahamas

On politicians Starmer and Johnson would do the same to each other, you could say Johnson did it a bit more I’m fairly sure Starmer landed a few blows, but Rayner had the Tory scum comment

That seemed pretty low brow in comparison - so I’m not sure about higher standards

But you ve made my point better than i ever could!

Folk repeatedly bring up Rayners scum comment (which she apologised for) but Johnson accused Starmer of not prosecuting Saville, a terrible slur on him... which many in his party (to their credit) found unacceptable.

This allegation has led to a increase in attacks on Starmer via SM and most of it unrepeatable here or any where else.

Its also predominately the right wing thugs that make the rape attacks against (labour) female politicians.

...and Truss is doing it today! calling Starmer plastic/fake.

But we keep getting the "Left attacks on the Conservatives.. very off putting..."

A fairer comment might be "I find ALL personal attacks by any political party or faction off putting"

A fairer comment might be "I find ALL personal attacks by any political party or faction off putting"

Thank you. I’ve made that point repeatedly but still it’s yes, but “the left”.

A fairer comment might be "I find ALL personal attacks by any political party or faction off putting"

True but I guess the point being made was that Labour need to win over voters that have voted or usually voted Tory.
Comments like Tory scum could be taken go refer to the voters themselves.
Which is why people say its a dumb move on their part.

Tbf I recall many Cons MPs having a go at Johnson over Saville comment as did the press - so definitely not off scot free

It was part of his decline iirc. So again standards were applied

I agree that other sites create different outcomes - I don’t use Twitter at all for that reason as I disagree with cess put it can often be against women and do not want to endorse that via usage , nor visit more right wing online forums where they have their own echo chamber

The comments have clearly been about this thread being the first on mn for civil debate

That I agree with as the site has made debate difficult

Why do people on the left not see how the site has made threads like this difficult?

I assume it’s because if you are part of the majority involved you are less likely to see it

It’s not unusual I suppose to not find it obvious - that’s why echo chambers occur

Again, I’m not sure if you genuinely don’t understand the numbers here, but no, Apple UK is not valued at $2.4 trillion. It’s very dishonest to mix and match like this to create a false impression.

Ok - since you’re determined to be facetious, although I’m starting to wonder if you understand this yourself:

Of course Apple UK as a subsidiary is not valued at $2.4 trillion. Apple Inc is and companies who have 4% profit don’t ever get those valuations since it’s barely even a sustainable business model.

Apple Inc reports profit margins of 39% so there is no reason for the UK to report such a low profit - unless significant tax ‘efficiencies’ have been sought. Yes there will be a blended average depending on operations of the country but 4% is a joke.

Its comical you’re suggesting global corps don’t use these ‘loopholes’ highly effectively and described by several earlier posters. You can disagree whether a change can be legislated and enforced across nations but that’s not what you’re doing.

This is illustrative of why no one can have a debate on anything sensible on MN. Bored now.

Bored now.

There is a God.

"why can't people on the left..." its this sort of remark that makes debate difficult isn't it?

Again you go on "I assume if you are part of the majority involved... fgs!

Its unnecessary, we are supposed to be attempting to have a civilised debate.

There is no defence for the Saville slur and not all Conservatives condemned it by any means.

As i said, ALL personal and untruthful attacks are uncalled for and should be condemned, wherever they come from.

Because I keep re iterating I mean this site. As others have said the same

Yes on other SM the picture is different but on here debate and opposition has been shut down

This thread is the first in a while that hasn’t done this

It’s a really simple point many posters are making - this site has become more if an echo chamber due to the way threads have run on politics. Until this one, long may it last

To move conversation on as it’s the same thing over I saw that Wallace backed Truss today which was interesting

I rate him so it was useful to hear, I assume both would keep him in position

That's exactly it. Politicians throwing shade isn't new, and they all do it.

My issue is the abuse thrown at the people that vote Tory (and personally I've not seen it go the other way to the same extent at all)

@MarshaBradyo, it’s not many posters. It’s you - post, after post after post. There are a couple of threads that are echo chambers but most aren’t and, trust me, right leaning posters are very happy to trot the insults out when it suits them. The run up to the next GE will have them all over MN like a rash, just like they were in 2019.

No it’s just you quoting me time after time 😫

every thread

It’s tiresome but you could read and quote other people’s posts instead - scroll back if unsure

I don’t know why you do it but my goodness it’s relentless