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Ukraine Invasion: Part 28

1000 replies

MagicFox · 24/06/2022 11:38

Thread 28 begins, thanks all for the company and resources

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Igotjelly · 08/07/2022 08:34

MagicFox · 08/07/2022 08:24

Chinese state media reported that exact perceived cause an hour ago. I'm starting to sound a bit tin foil hat, apologies!

I think its only natural in the World we live in. There doesn't seem to be any hints in the UK press that any foreign govts were involved and generally the most obvious explanation is the right one.

MagicFox · 08/07/2022 08:39

I have a question born of my ignorance about the ME. If things now start to get worse eg in Syria, Israel, Iran etc and RU and the US are pulled in on that front, what happens with Russia in Ukraine? There suddenly seem to be a lot of plates being thrown into the air - how will they all get juggled?

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Igotjelly · 08/07/2022 08:53

The Russians have been surprisingly vocal in their condemnation of the attack on Abe. Lavrov made a statement to the G20 and the Russian Embassy just tweeted:

“We pray for the health of the former prime minister of Japan, Mr Shinzo Abe... We strongly condemn the barbaric attempt on his life.”

MagicFox · 08/07/2022 09:00

Ben Wallace front runner for PM?

Ukraine Invasion: Part 28
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Igotjelly · 08/07/2022 09:05

MagicFox · 08/07/2022 09:00

Ben Wallace front runner for PM?

Its worth looking at the thread about the PM's resignation as there was some quite interesting stuff on there about Ben Wallace and the fact he isn't perhaps quite as 'good' as he's made out to be. Quite coloured my view of him to be honest. Included some old Tweets where he basically was lying about his credentials.

Its a shame, they're all cut from the same cloth.

MagicFox · 08/07/2022 09:15

That's depressing :-(

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MagicFox · 08/07/2022 09:17

In other news, I don't know why this is the first I've heard (today) of Putin saying this yesterday. It's strange how some things make headlines over others. This is @carlbildt's interpretation too

"In meeting with Duma members yesterday, Putin  said his war against  is “only the beginning of a radical breakdown of the US-style world order” and a “transition from liberal-globalist American egocentrism.” For him, it is nothing less than a war for the world."

twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1545319913522434049?s=21&t=qIUv7-6JYzKbKkpv3m8oow

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Ijsbear · 08/07/2022 09:37

re-linking an excellent article someone linked a while ago. it's well worth reading about ordinary people's views and the complicated feelings around Ukraine/Russia and fear for Kherson. Agreed, Kherson is going to come in for it badly when the Ukr forces get that far

wartranslated.com/i-spoke-to-people-who-left-kherson-shortly-before-the-invasion-here-is-what-they-said/

MagicFox · 08/07/2022 09:49

Abe has died, I'm sorry to report. These are awful times

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MagicFox · 08/07/2022 09:50

Thread of Abe's achievements : twitter.com/robertalanward/status/1545324601340829697?s=21&t=qIUv7-6JYzKbKkpv3m8oow

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Ijsbear · 08/07/2022 09:53

NEXTA
@nexta_tv
·
28m
#Lavrov will leave the #G20 summit in #Indonesia early. He will not attend the official dinner and the evening session of the summit.

Ijsbear · 08/07/2022 09:53

Oh no .... how awful Magic :(

So shocking in Japan. Just why?

Igotjelly · 08/07/2022 09:54

MagicFox · 08/07/2022 09:49

Abe has died, I'm sorry to report. These are awful times

Very very sad.

MagicFox · 08/07/2022 09:57

Transcript of Putin's speech to the state duma yesterday : en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/68836

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ScrollingLeaves · 08/07/2022 10:46

@Igotjelly y · Today 09:54
MagicFox
Abe has died, I'm sorry to report. These are awful times
Very very sad.

It certainly is. Thank you for letting us know.

MagicFox · 08/07/2022 10:51

Important article about the impact of the war on Europe.

This stood out:

"Second, there is no substitute for hard power, and no nation can remain secure if it lacks a strong military, regardless of whether or not it belongs to a military alliance, for NATO has yet again defaulted to the United States to secure Europe."

Also, "The war in Ukraine is laying foundations for a new power distribution in Europe. The failure of the Russia policy pursued for three decades by Germany and France has left a leadership vacuum in Europe. For Germany to reclaim it, notwithstanding the country’s dominant economic position in the EU, it will now have to earn the right to lead. The key question facing Europe going forward is what role the United Kingdom will play in NATO, and especially what role Poland will play in both NATO and the EU. The navy will remain the British forte, especially as great power competition in the Indo-Pacific heats up. For Poland, land forces will be the centerpiece of its military power. But neither of them, independently or together, can assume the leadership position in Europe without a clear decision by Washington to endorse and materially support such a reconfiguration on the Continent. In the past, the United States twice turned to Germany to lead on the Continent, first at the end of the Cold War, then more recently when the Biden administration agreed to drop its sanctions on Nord Stream 2. In each case Germany managed instead of leading, focusing on political and economic tools, and only reluctantly allowing for the military dimension to enter the overall power calculus. Washington may yet decide that three times is the charm and default to Germany yet again, but the realities of the war in Ukraine, the most brutal war in Europe since the Second World War, and the attendant military requirements have stacked the odds against this outcome. The question then is what Europe will look like once the shooting in Ukraine stops. This question is not about who wants to lead Europe, as there are aspirants old and new; rather, it is fundamentally, about who can. We will find out soon enough."

www.19fortyfive.com/2022/05/russias-invasion-of-ukraine-is-transforming-europe/

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MagicFox · 08/07/2022 12:07

"Ukraine and the return of a multipolar world" by Emma Ashford nationalinterest.org/feature/ukraine-and-return-multipolar-world-203276

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MagicFox · 08/07/2022 12:22

Copying the Ashford article here as it seems to be addressing a lot of broader questions about the war that have come up on the thread:

"Ukraine and the Return of the Multipolar World"

IN DECEMBER 2021, Secretary of State Antony Blinken addressed negotiations over Russia’s formidable military buildup around Ukraine. He reiterated that the United States would not discuss Russian concerns over Ukrainian membership in NATO, arguing that “one country does not have the right to exert a sphere of influence. That notion should be relegated to the dustbin of history.” At the Munich Security Conference, mere days before the invasion, this assertion was echoed by a variety of policymakers, including the German foreign minister, Annalena Baerbock, who argued that Europe faced a stark choice: “Helsinki or Yalta … The choice, in other words, between a system of shared responsibility for security and peace … or a system of power rivalry and spheres of influence.”
It is therefore easy to see why many have hailed the war in Ukraine—and the unexpected successes of the Ukrainian military in pushing back the initial Russian onslaught—as a repudiation of spheres of influence in world affairs, and a reassertion of the notion of an American-led liberal international order in which power and might matters less than norms and values.
But nothing could be more mistaken. A sphere of influence is not a normative concept, nor something a state cedes to another out of courtesy or pity. It is instead a simple fact: the place where one great power is unwilling or unable to commit the necessary resources to force another state to submit. In that regard, Ukraine is itself not a repudiation of the idea of spheres of influence, but rather a clear example of how they work in practice. Ukraine is both a clear indicator of the limits of America’s global sphere of influence in the post-Cold War period, and a demonstration of the extent to which Russia is able to defend what it sees as its own regional sphere. The war in Ukraine thus does not mark a continuation of the unipolar moment, but instead, a dividing line between the period when the United States saw the whole world as its sphere of influence, and a new, more multipolar world in which U.S. power is constrained and limited.
To put it another way: the war in Ukraine has demonstrated three things about the shifting balance of global power. First, while America may still claim a global sphere of influence, it is not willing in practice to risk a nuclear war with Russia to protect Ukraine. American arms, intelligence, and finance have undoubtedly served to tip the balance in the conflict, but it will not be fought by American troops. Second, spheres of influence are rarely uncontested, and Russia has thus far proven incapable of imposing its will on Ukraine, failing to achieve both its primary and secondary military goals in this war. As such, the boundaries of a potential Russian sphere of influence may in practice be far smaller than assumed prior to February 24. They may be limited to little more than Russia’s own borders.
Third, while much of the coverage of the war in Ukraine has been framed in this bipolar way—presenting the conflict as a struggle between Russia and the West—the response to the war has been far less clear-cut. Outside of Europe, most states have taken a more nuanced approach to the crisis.
Poorer African and Asian states have joined UN votes condemning Russia but have not joined sanctions. India has refused to take sides, a decision rooted in its partial dependence on Russian military exports, and has benefitted from cut-rate Russian oil exports. The Gulf States have for the most part carefully cultivated their neutrality, refusing to increase oil production or even to call the conflict a war. Meanwhile, Beijing has pursued cautious support of Moscow but has resisted any deeper political or economic involvement.
None of this suggests either that we are headed back into the post-Cold War unipolar moment, or that we are headed for a new Cold War-style showdown with Russia, or even with both Russia and China. Instead, it suggests that the world is increasingly fracturing into a more complex and multipolar environment, one in which America’s long-running foreign policy adventurism and overreach are liable to leave it overextended. For all the triumphalism of the Washington foreign policy narrative on Ukraine, it would be foolish for U.S. policymakers to assume that this war presents either a vindication of the liberal order or a repudiation of power politics and spheres of influence. Instead, it suggests that they must learn to navigate a world that is not divided into black and white, but rather, into many shades of gray.
Emma Ashford is a Resident Senior Fellow with the New American Engagement Initiative in the Scowcroft Center for Strategy and Security.

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Ijsbear · 08/07/2022 12:59

@Igotjelly have you got a link to the resignation thread pls?

Igotjelly · 08/07/2022 13:43

Ijsbear · 08/07/2022 12:59

@Igotjelly have you got a link to the resignation thread pls?

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4584955-the-one-where-big-dog-gets-poop-scooped-thread-10?page=10&reply=118403074

it was on this one, moves pretty quickly so could be a couple of pages back.

Ijsbear · 08/07/2022 13:48

Oh wait found it - was struggling with the phone !

Ijsbear · 08/07/2022 13:48

Thanks

Igotjelly · 08/07/2022 13:58

Speaking to Reuters the Russian Ambassador to the UK was asked how the war would end, his reply "We are going to liberate all of the Donbas."

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 08/07/2022 14:18

And for 'liberate' read 'bomb into oblivion then steal'.
With a side order of genocide and moving in Russians to take the place of the Ukrainians who lived there.

Ijsbear · 08/07/2022 16:27

Media reports that Dmitry Medvedev's wife Svetlana left. The couple has been together since 1993.

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