The country is a shit show - why is there so little mention of Brexit's role?

[Neonskytonight]

That's it really.

Surely all our woes can't be placed at the door of covid and war - it is a good political narrative, but is it really true?

I'm amazed how little questioning by the media and public there is about the role of Brexit.

typical twisted Brexiter mentality.

The word 'surely' dropped in there, as if it's somehow a given that anyone who wants or needs to do anything will be accommodated.

😂 No I would never be that entitled

A simple outline of your economic thoughts would do @P00rKids.

"You seem to think some people are entitled to be paid whatever they like for a job requiring no skills that anyone could do."
No but I think that people are entitled to a decent wage for doing a day's work. It isn't that long ago that it was perfectly normal to be able to leave school and get a job in a factory, office or wherever and be earning enough to leave home and if not buy a house, be able to afford to rent a flat and have some kind of quality of life. I think that was a better way for things to be than for kids and young adults to be constantly broke and living at home for longer and longer, or in shared accommodation.

Continuing to financially subsidise a “failed” EU financial model - at our own country’s expense is senseless. It will bring financial ruin to the UK. External political, social and legal control over a successful nation that is hated and disrespected by its actual members? Anyone would be daft to vote for that. I think we’ll do better looking after our own interests in this scenario, rather than theirs? Don’t you agree?

I dont agree that the UK was hated by other members. Why do you think it was?

Nor do I agree that an isolationist policy is better than co-operation. I also think that the UK is weaker for having left.

The only upside for me has been watching the Conservative party destroy themselves over it.😆

Couple of things worth mentioning.

1. All airports are a disaster right now. I travel globally for work. Children are in Denmark over the summer. Multiple times this year I’ve missed flights because I can’t get through security. This has happened at Manchester, Copenhagen, Newark, Milan, Paris and Chicago. The airline industry have not responded well to the build up of air traffic and multiple times I’ve felt unsafe because of the staffing levels. I won’t fly SAS right now until they sort out their staffing.
2. Brexit has caused supply chain issues because the paperwork is a nightmare.
3. The EU is about to be stress tested beyond belief. Germany can raise money at low rates but Italy, Spain, Greece and Portugal are 2.5% higher and the gap is widening. The EU is about to go through a major reform because this isn’t sustainable and I’m happy we are out. I do think we should rejoin when they go through the reform.
4. The UK has plenty of people who are out of work. The benefits system doesn’t exactly encourage people to work and the universal credit system is a disaster. Disability isn’t supported in the workplace. There should be a lot more part time roles at the lower levels of unskilled and semi skilled labour and zero hour contracts must be banned.

Ive been outside of the UK for 20 years and the country has been falling apart for years. The left have a massive say and when I go about my business I find people don’t buy into that. The media push that agenda at the expense of the working classes. Womens rights are being eroded. I had a minority male in a leadership role tell me a white woman who I’ve worked with and been impressed with her work, isn’t a minority so no they won’t support her promotion. I was floored. There are very few white women in technology.

Boris is awful but the alternative of Corbyn was worse and Labour need to find a new leader to provide some sort of alternative. What does irk me is that we have never had a more diverse cabinet with so few from Oxbridge. This isn’t ever talked about. This is also the first time a cabinet has had any racial diversity. It’s a shame history will praise Boris for this.

The current talk of placing all asylum seeking in Rwanda is a copy of what Denmark is doing. So while everyone praises Denmark for being so amazing, know it’s a xenophobic country. We do have an issue with immigration and too many asylum seekers are being allowed to enter for economic reasons. As someone who has immigrated into the US, it’s very hard to assimilate and I took 3 steps back before I took half a step forward. Economics degree from redbrick and it counted for nothing. I had to go back and redo my education. I have an Ivy League education behind me now and have done well but I’m aware of my privilege and very few economic asylum seekers have this privilege that will enable them to get through the process so positively. We need a new plan for immigration but what has been presented isn’t good enough. The civil servants also need to wake up and realize the impact these policies have on working class people.

I do get angry when I return home and see the state of the place. The UK is still a great place but it won’t be if we continue on this path.

I trust that you Brexiters who can't imagine why any Briton would want to go to Switzerland, will log off right now because who needs technology developed by a Briton working at CERN.

It is true that the internet itself had military origins in the USA but the WWW added onto that to allow information sharing.

Since I live in Oxfordshire near the Harwell and Culham Labs it's not surprising that I know a significant number of physicists and mathematicians who have done stints at CERN.

But this of course has to be trumped by a Leaver who doesn't know anyone who does.

Although scientists outside EU do do this?

www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-05/australian-scientists-help-unlock-universe-mysteries-cern/6001086

It's not even about CERN, it's about purposely closing off avenues to the next generation and making their world smaller and much more limited just because someone personally knows little about the rest of the world and has no curiosity.

The attitude of 'why would you want to learn that?' and 'why would you want to go there' is so narrow minded and stifling. What gives anyone the right to narrow other people's horizons like that?

Although scientists outside EU do do this?

No one has said they didn't - I specifically mentioned how the origins of the internet were as a US military venture. But scientist value international co-operation and the UK Government has now made this more difficult. Who is going to bother waiting for a Briton to get a visa at a cost if there is say a Dutchman or Frenchwoman ready to step into the post without jumping through that hoop? By the same token will either of those people bother with a visa for the UK if they can just toddle off to an EU lab without one?

Actually it has never just been a case of toddling off, but we have now added extra hurdles but at the same time want to be Global. Which takes me back to the GHIC - saying that other countries might be added in time, tells you that it's most certainly not global now. Other countries might never be added, so we are being sold a lie with its title alone.

The CERN was brought up by pp so I assumed they were worried about it being cut off

There’s no reason the opportunities to go there can’t be retained as if Aus can, other countries can

I ve actually some sympathy for this argument.. or i did.

But think about it... who decides the min wage? who decides how much everyone in the public sector gets paid? and in turn dictates public sector wage rises... yep the Govt, so from 2010 onwards we had pay freezes or 1% rises in public sector, MW was also cut in real terms.

Sure some EU workers came here and did MW stuff but many didn't, the majority did skilled worked and did not under cut anyone, Persimmons don't suddenly pay a Polish bricklayer less than a UK one, same in the NHS or in a food factory.

..and where EU workers did undercut, whose fault is that? 40 years of demonising the unionisation of workers, Govt allow no union work places etc etc.

I'd also take issue on the so called pay rises you say people are getting, going from £10ph to £10.55 ph is not a huge pay rise (care agency my DD used to work for) and many cases, yes the advertised wage is much higher but now includes extra hours and shift payments.

Anyway, Inflation is 9 or 10%, would be very strange if workers across all sectors were not getting 5 or 6% pay rises.... nurses got 3% :( so much for Brexit getting workers more money... its a myth)

But behind all this, is the fact the UK do not have enough people of suitable skills and intelligence to do the work EU folk used to do.

How do you feel about the UK being locked out of Horizon funding and the scientific coop it brings?

Doubtless permanently if the NI protocol is changed unilaterally.

There’s no reason the opportunities to go there can’t be retained as if Aus can, other countries can

Some of these bodies are genuinely International and obviously they have to be based somewhere. CERN is primarily European, with only Israel allowed full membership, but I am pretty sure that a number of other countries have associate membership.

I did hear a scientist talking about the future and how he welcomes more collaboration with US, Aus and so on.

I can see that side, I like the idea of building on global collaboration

It’s something Aus has done well in last few decades imo. Often it would be more overlooked but now it’s part of discussions and push forward

MarshaBraydo, as an Australian, I think, you would like more co-operation with your country. But there is no reason why it has to be either on the other side of the world or across an ocean, or your nearest neighbours. Apart from the ideology of Brexiters - anything to do with the words Europe or letters EU is bad. A number of them would be happy if the UK could be towed across the Atlantic, another proportion want to big up the White parts of the Empire.

Back in the 1960s we were worried about a brain drain to the USA. Who exactly wants another brain drain?

There 3 major science hubs, USA, Asia and Europe. Horizon is over 100 billion euros of funding, which we may well miss out on & one where we were a significant partner.

Of course had we lost this as a direct consequence of Brexit then yes, there is little we can do about it but its not, its been lost (potentially) because of our Govt's on decision to tear up the NI protocol it signed and draw up just 12 months ago.

The UK will have to start all over again and compete against established partners, this isn't going to happen over night, its pretty easy to get to any EU city and back again, within a few hours, not quite the same getting to Aus or US.

Have a look at what the Crick institute thinks.

Good point on brain drain, if your going to be doing your research in California.. or Perth, why not move there?

If you live in Peth etc the attraction of Nottingham may wane....

its pretty easy to get to any EU city and back again, within a few hours, not quite the same getting to Aus or US.

Yes, and collaborating via a video call with another EU/European Lab is at most a two hour time difference. At work we used to have to collaborate with a US firm in Colorado - which was a bit of a pain because of the time difference.

I’m not actually thinking of it from an Aus perspective in that way.

I think Aus is doing fine as it is, it’s more who we U.K. get to collaborate with (I’m both U.K. and Aus anyway, born here back longer now)

It’s a different view than that, I’m not thinking about what Aus will get but the UK

And if Aus, who had more of an up hill battle imo to stand on any stage can do it the U.K. can embrace new opportunities

I did vote remain and it took me a while to get over losing but I always look for positives and opportunities and hearing the U.K. scientist sound quite buoyant about the same was interesting

Many connections can be established - we had loads as a country with very strict borders

It’s not what everyone wanted but I’ll look for the good - we can’t vote again (on that note if we did vote again I’d stick to my original vote)

I can speak from my own family's experience - moving to another European Country did not require the same level of decision making as moving to either Canada or Australia did.

European countries - mostly within a two hour flight, and there were plenty of cheap flights from the major cities. Australia and USA/Canada - especially the west coast - more expensive and not really possible to go for a week end - (although I do have a well -paid nephew who would do just that.)

No, the vast majority of working class kids have not been trapped in the UK. Anyone who could get a passport could work and study in the EU, be it au-pairing or physics, attending universities or short apprenticeship training.

They are a lot more trapped now than they were before Brexit.

And if Aus, who had more of an up hill battle imo to stand on any stage can do it the U.K. can embrace new opportunities

Did Australia smash up existing opportunities before it embraced new ones?
This is what the UK has pretended it had to do before it embraced new ones.

I spent time living in Belgium. I could wake up at 7am, walk to Brussels-Midi, get on a Eurostar at 8am and be in central London by 10.30am British time. Booking ahead, I could get returns for under about £70. I could not have afforded flights back and forth to the US or Canada.