Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 25

1002 replies

MagicFox · 12/05/2022 08:18

Hi all, another thread for supporting and sharing

OP posts:
Thread gallery
46
Igotjelly · 12/05/2022 10:49

Interesting, and less aggressive statement than expected, from the Kremlin in relation to Finland's bid to join NATO:

"The Kremlin has said it considers Finland's move to join NATO a threat to Russia which won't help stability and security in Europe.

Responding to its neighbour's earlier announcement of its intention to apply for NATO membership, it said Russia "is prepared to give the most decisive response to any side which tries to get involved in Ukraine and hinder the special military operation".

The Kremlin said everyone wants to avoid a direct clash between NATO and Russia."

Source - Sky News

Igotjelly · 12/05/2022 10:51

Continued from seminar - View is that we need to be careful for falling for the old Western narrative that we can only succeed if we have an enemy. They suggest listening to Biden and other's speeches recently and they all talk about "winning the 2020s" not about cooperating and thriving together in the 2020s.

Ijsbear · 12/05/2022 10:55

yes, thanks. Sadly it seems to be true about democracy which is a real shame because over time I think other systems tend towards the polarization of wealth more quickly.

This could be bad news. The FSB has been removed from spying ops in Ukraine and a truly nasty individual at the head of Military Int unit GRU has taken over. www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/12/putin-pulls-russian-spy-agency-out-of-ukraine-a77642

Igotjelly · 12/05/2022 10:56

Continued - In response to a question on whether the sanctions against Russia have caused more harm than good - Yes, but they were necessary. They are the long game but, in the speaker's view, have little chance of significantly impacting Putin's grip on power within any reasonable timeline.

Sanctions have been painted as a deterrent but they are not, it is well understood in Govt and the international community that sanctions are about punishment not deterrence. Its more about making sure that the way your country does business that aligns with its rhetoric.

Muminabun · 12/05/2022 10:56

Thank you @MagicFox for keeping on top of thread Management. Gosh these move fast. I have been following since the start and feel like I have an online diploma in geopolitics. Thankyou to those who share their professional and technical expertise.

Igotjelly · 12/05/2022 11:03

Continued - Impact of Sweden and Finland joining and will others be active in looking for enhanced relationship? - Assuming that F & S go forward with applications this will be majorly significant. Don't think others would get on the wagon (bar perhaps a couple of the Balkans). Process is complex but could move quickly with F & S as they have been 'inside the tent' for a long time (e.g. taking part in exercises with NATO etc.)

PestorPeston · 12/05/2022 11:06

A thread ~ There are now many Russians in Kherson who arrived for the 9th May parade. Many of them now work at the market and sell Russian products. My friend says that when they go out now they don’t see familiar faces. Russians are arriving to replace Ukrainians and live in their homes.
twitter.com/JosephStash/status/1524676024461631489

The Russians are so good at this sort of thing. When order is restored it is going to be so difficult to sort out who is who and where is where, plus of course who is where.

Igotjelly · 12/05/2022 11:18

Continued. Wrap up.

Delegate 1 - We live in a much more divided World but there are still things we need to do together (e.g. Climate Change). Very politically sensitive and will need to be creative.

Delegate 2 - Agree with 1. Concerned about whether progress on climate will be made at a time of global economic stress. Sense is that real progress being made on this ahead of the 2008 crash, only just regaining the impetus and that risks being lost with this crisis.

Risk of nuclear war is a red herring - the real issues are far less headline grabbing and far more insidious.

China is calculating - will do things that seem strange but bring them long-term advantages. Sense is that Russia doesn't like being linked to China because the view is that at some point they will expect the debt for their support to be paid in full. In the current crisis really think the muted support of China is telling - they do not view themselves as Russia's ally.

Delegate 3 - UK is a major player (6th largest economy). Will be in the top tier under the China/US tier for many years to come. We have clout and have to think carefully about how we leverage influence outside of the EU. For the UK this should be our focus, fixing this relationship. Otherwise Russia/China etc will use this conflict to their advantage.

In the end if the UK isn't strong internally, and we protect democracy, then the rest of the World will take advantage. To achieve this we should be part of the international community of likeminded countries.

End.

Ijsbear · 12/05/2022 11:19

about another rogue state:

NK NEWS
@nknewsorg
·
23m
DEVELOPING STORY: North Korea launched a ballistic missile into the East Sea on Thursday, the same day it announced its outbreak of COVID-19.

Ijsbear · 12/05/2022 11:21

@Igotjelly Thank you for that, good stuff.

peston the mess is just huge in so many different ways isn't it :s

Igotjelly · 12/05/2022 11:39

Ijsbear · 12/05/2022 11:19

about another rogue state:

NK NEWS
@nknewsorg
·
23m
DEVELOPING STORY: North Korea launched a ballistic missile into the East Sea on Thursday, the same day it announced its outbreak of COVID-19.

Typical North Korea - nothing to see here, now look at our big missile....

toastfiend · 12/05/2022 12:15

Thank you for your continued work in monitoring and creating new threads as needed @MagicFox.

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 12/05/2022 12:35

Today's installment of how to frighten everyone stupid from the Swedish authorities is a reminder to include your pets in your emergency survival plans, and suggestions on what we should be doing. As if being stuck in a fallout shelter with Brenda and her nutella stash wasn't enough, I now have confinement with PsychoCat to look forward too.

strawberriesarenot · 12/05/2022 12:37

Thank you for the new thread

ScrollingLeaves · 12/05/2022 12:42

@PestorPeston · 12/05/2022 11:06

A thread ~ There are now many Russians in Kherson who arrived for the 9th May parade. Many of them now work at the market and sell Russian products. My friend says that when they go out now they don’t see familiar faces. Russians are arriving to replace Ukrainians and live in their homes.
twitter.com/JosephStash/status/1524676024461631489

The Russians are so good at this sort of thing. When order is restored it is going to be so difficult to sort out who is who and where is where, plus of course who is where.

Thank you PestonPeston. This is one of the most chilling things I’ve read. It is so insidious. I know Russians must have used this technique before, but later everyone just thinks the new inhabitants always lived there.

If incoming Russians are allowed to move into apartments of Ukrainians who have ‘evacuated’ that means there is the incentive to murder and hide people who stayed. Then of course so many thousands were not evacuated but deported.

I hope Ukraine has good enough protected public records to at least know who is missing one day.

DuncinToffee · 12/05/2022 13:03

🌻Not posting much but still reading, thanks everyone.

MagicFox · 12/05/2022 13:04

Just screengrabbing this tweet re Kremlin's response to Finland and NATO because it cuts through the threats to pinpoint a calmer message.

Thanks @katem98 @toastfiend @ScrollingLeaves for kind notes :-)

Ukraine Invasion: Part 25
OP posts:
BreadInCaptivity · 12/05/2022 13:06

Checking in.

KonTikki · 12/05/2022 13:11

.

SerendipityJane · 12/05/2022 13:13

If incoming Russians are allowed to move into apartments of Ukrainians who have ‘evacuated’ that means there is the incentive to murder and hide people who stayed. Then of course so many thousands were not evacuated but deported.

Hang on are we discussing Ukraine or Palestine ?

PerkingFaintly · 12/05/2022 13:17

PestorPeston · 12/05/2022 11:06

A thread ~ There are now many Russians in Kherson who arrived for the 9th May parade. Many of them now work at the market and sell Russian products. My friend says that when they go out now they don’t see familiar faces. Russians are arriving to replace Ukrainians and live in their homes.
twitter.com/JosephStash/status/1524676024461631489

The Russians are so good at this sort of thing. When order is restored it is going to be so difficult to sort out who is who and where is where, plus of course who is where.

This is a tried and tested method of occupation, used by everyone from the European imperial powers of the C18th & C19th, to C20th China in Tibet, to C21st Russia. It's incredibly cynical.

  1. Settle your civilians in a region as disposable occupiers.
  2. If there is violent resistance to the settlers, throw up your hands in horror and shout to the world that the resisters are barbaric.
  3. Whether or not there is violent resistance, claim the settlers are being discriminated against and rush to their "rescue".
  4. If all of this doesn't get you the territory you wanted, walk away and leave the settlers to bear the brunt. You haven't lost anything you really care about like your military.

Russia has played a variation by issuing passports to Russian-speaking families of long standing in Black Sea countries, instead of relying on importing 1st-generation settlers. Same game though.

2020 article on "passportization":
The role of the West in countering Russian Passportization in the Black Sea
www.mei.edu/publications/role-west-countering-russian-passportization-black-sea

PerkingFaintly · 12/05/2022 13:21

Obviously the Russians are also experiencing another variation right now: they're not getting to walk away with their army intact.

But they'll definitely be putting up an international wail about Ukrainian barbarity when the new settlers are expelled.

ScrollingLeaves · 12/05/2022 13:37

@SerendipityJane · 12/05/2022 13:13
”If incoming Russians are allowed to move into apartments of Ukrainians who have ‘evacuated’ that means there is the incentive to murder and hide people who stayed. Then of course so many thousands were not evacuated but deported.”

Hang on are we discussing Ukraine or Palestine ?

It may beg the question Serendipity, but we have been trying to generally concentrate on all the confusing details of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine on this tread.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 12/05/2022 13:40

PestorPeston · 12/05/2022 11:06

A thread ~ There are now many Russians in Kherson who arrived for the 9th May parade. Many of them now work at the market and sell Russian products. My friend says that when they go out now they don’t see familiar faces. Russians are arriving to replace Ukrainians and live in their homes.
twitter.com/JosephStash/status/1524676024461631489

The Russians are so good at this sort of thing. When order is restored it is going to be so difficult to sort out who is who and where is where, plus of course who is where.

This matches reports I have had from Kherson basically since the parade. Some people are essentially not going into town at all.

ScrollingLeaves · 12/05/2022 13:44

Sorry, I have just seen that PerkingFaintly has clearly analysed the principles of this nasty occupation technique used by others
throughout history. I didn’t mean to sound rude, Serendipity.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.