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Ukraine Invasion: Part 22

1000 replies

MagicFox · 23/04/2022 10:06

Here we are again

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
Hillsmakeyoustrong · 28/04/2022 11:51

I think anger is extremely important as long as it is subject to a cool head. Anger motivates like nothing else but it has to be controlled.

katem98 · 28/04/2022 11:52

Natsku · 28/04/2022 11:51

There is no need for the British public to suffer if the British government would get their act together. A reasonable cap on fuel prices, decent tax on oil and gas company profits, and tax credits/bump to benefit payments to ease things with the rises in food prices.

👏🏻

AthelstaneTheUnready · 28/04/2022 11:53

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 28/04/2022 11:51

I think anger is extremely important as long as it is subject to a cool head. Anger motivates like nothing else but it has to be controlled.

Absolutely. Fortunately, I've been angry pretty much non-stop since about 1986, so am quite practiced now. Halo

TheABC · 28/04/2022 12:05

Going back to the sabre-rattling over the nukes, I hope the Russians have been keeping their nuclear stockpile in better shape than the rest of the army. Whilst they will never allow observers to verify it, I damn well hope Putin had someone check that

a) it's stable and b) it has not been flogged off the back of a truck in Syria.

Right now, I am willing support any measures required to get the UN into Mauripol and get those poor people out to safety. However, I don't think cutting off all the oil and gas supplies tomorrow will result in that miracle happening.

As always, it's a problem with timelines. It takes longer to find an alternative infrastructure for energy than it does to bomb a city. The same applies to sanctions, We need time for the sanctions to squeeze and for Ukraine to find the best window of opportunity to use the weapons we shipped over to them.

We can't stop the killing, raping and violence today. We can stop it tomorrow by making sure Russia does not have the capacity to build up an arsenal again. I also hope we can help Ukraine get back on its feet through rebuilding assistance, governance support and economic measures. I recall they were having trouble with corruption prior to the invasion and the aftermath of a war zone makes that type of thing flourish.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 28/04/2022 12:06

AthelstaneTheUnready · 28/04/2022 11:53

Absolutely. Fortunately, I've been angry pretty much non-stop since about 1986, so am quite practiced now. Halo

Me too 😂 but I'm still working on the cool head bit

Alexandra2001 · 28/04/2022 12:26

Russia has responded to Heapey's comments on attacking Russian targets in Russia... quite mellow, said it would lead to instability in Europe! 🙄

XXXXing rich coming from them!

Igotjelly · 28/04/2022 12:35

Alexandra2001 · 28/04/2022 12:26

Russia has responded to Heapey's comments on attacking Russian targets in Russia... quite mellow, said it would lead to instability in Europe! 🙄

XXXXing rich coming from them!

Between that and moaning that Ukraine haven’t responded to their peace agreement it seems a strange and perverse Russia as the peacemaker type narrative. Utter bollocks of course.

Ijsbear · 28/04/2022 12:46

Natsku · 28/04/2022 11:51

There is no need for the British public to suffer if the British government would get their act together. A reasonable cap on fuel prices, decent tax on oil and gas company profits, and tax credits/bump to benefit payments to ease things with the rises in food prices.

If only. If only. I wish that they would :(

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2022 12:48

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 28/04/2022 11:16

I might have been flippant about the Disney break.

What about your job, or someone else’s job, what about your pension when the stock market crashes? What about the bare shelves in the supermarkets and the chemists? what about not being able to afford going to work because you cannot fill up your car? Rolling blackouts?

Are you happy with that?

A few points here.

The opposition parties are all pretty much in agreement that we can't do anything else but support Ukraine. So whilst there is an issue over the cost of living, thats probably not going to affect war efforts.

Where the disagreement is, is over how the government funds it and what measures it puts in to off set fuel and food costs. Thats a completely different argument.

Whilst the political parties are largely united over Ukraine, then the situation is that, you are unlikely to get a grass roots uprising that can do much meaningful. Someone like Farage will pick up some support, but crucially there is no election for a while. He's going to get very little platform in the media. I can't see the press suddenly deciding to opposite all the main stream parties on this one.

As for riots. We didn't have riots over Brexit. We didn't have riots over Covid. The chances of a spontaneous riot happening are small without organisation or an incident to spark it. At the moment we have neither. It may happen, but I think its very premature to say this.

Plus Russia has got its own woes over food, jobs and empty shelves which will hit it, before it hits us.

Its also hard to argue that we are doing something wrong, if the same problems are in Europe too. The UK at least is less dependant on Russian energy than others (to be blunt and rather crass - we can benefit from more acute problems in the rest of Europe if we are smart...)

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2022 12:52

Crazy British Visa Update.

So official figures published this morning state that 86100 visas had been issued, of which 27100 Ukrainians have arrived so far.

I think there are two reasons behind the discrepancy; people in more stable areas were the only ones who could do the paperwork and applied and some of these have now decided to stay in Ukraine because the situation changed with the withdrawal from the north and around Kyiv and secondly the Home Office have done a good job of approving visas for some members of a family group, but not the whole family.

Perversely, one friend is still in limbo and her case has been passed on to more senior officials as its so bad. She's at over 40days now.
Someone else I know who got visas in 5 days has now been told by the council that they must have slipped through the net because they didn't get the house check or DBS prior to the visas being issued.

Which is utterly mad.

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2022 13:09

https://www.rferl.org/a/uzbekistan-komilov-ukraine-steps-down/31825263.html

After Publicly Backing Ukraine's Sovereignty, Uzbek FM Steps down

Weeks after publicly supporting Ukraine's territorial integrity, Uzbek Foreign Minister Abdulaziz Komilov has left his post.

Uzbek presidential spokesman Sherzod Asadov said on April 27 that Komilov left the post of foreign minister to move to another job -- deputy secretary of the presidential Security Council.

According to Asadov, Vladimir Norov was appointed as first deputy foreign minister and will be the acting foreign minister of the Central Asian country. Norov served as Uzbekistan's foreign minister from 2006 to 2010.

Komilov abruptly disappeared from public view immediately after he told lawmakers in a speech on March 17 that Uzbekistan did not recognize the Moscow-backed separatist-controlled districts in Ukraine's Donetsk and Luhansk regions, known as the Donbas.

He also called for a "peaceful solution" to the unprovoked attack on Ukraine by Russia, considered an ally of Uzbekistan.

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2022 13:10

On March 29, the Uzbek Foreign Ministry said Komilov had not been seen in public for more than a week because he was being treated for an unspecified "chronic illness" in Tashkent before being taken to an unspecified foreign country for further treatment.

herecomesthsun · 28/04/2022 13:16

Well, the way we have done things in the UK, is focussed on paying as few taxes as we can, and tolerating corruption in government (contracts for mates) and Russian interference in our political system, payments to the Conservative party etc.

So are we going to do things differently now?

Igotjelly · 28/04/2022 13:17

BBC link

Who would have thought when Putin warned of weapons no one else had he was actually talking about trained dolphins 😂

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2022 13:17

Jack Detsch AT JackDetsch
NEW: The Mariupol mayor’s office reports that 4 Russian filtration camps are operating in the city: US official US amb to the OSCE Michael Carpenter said a Mariupol escapee said the camps are “like ghettos” where Russia divides up people linked to Ukrainian govt, military, or media

NEW: US has information that Russia is planning for a forced capitulation of Ukraine’s democratic elected government “dissolving all local municipal governments”: US official US ambassador to OSCE Michael Carpenter said has set up new govt structures in Russian occupied territories

Carpenter, cont’d: “Plans for a new government & new constitution are being developed by Russian officials … This planning includes a moratorium disallowing legitimate [Ukrainian] leaders & those supporting [Ukrainian] legitimate government from any leadership positions.”

Igotjelly · 28/04/2022 13:18

Screenshot because Mumsnet is such a load of shit you can’t even post a link.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 22
katem98 · 28/04/2022 13:19

Igotjelly · 28/04/2022 13:18

Screenshot because Mumsnet is such a load of shit you can’t even post a link.

This bit made me chuckleGrin

Ukraine Invasion: Part 22
baroqueandblue · 28/04/2022 13:19

Catching up here, and a bit puzzled by the doubts raised again about Putin’s possible nuclear intentions towards countries like the UK. Wasn't it only a couple of days ago that, responding to Heappey's comments, Moscow said there would be an immediate proportional response and clarified that as strikes on buildings associated with British diplomats in Kiev? Not good for those at risk there, of course, but a far cry from threatening to nuke London.

Sorry I can't find the quote, I read it in the Guardian live blog and my browser history now only takes me to a page that says that particular day's blog has now closed, and makes it hard to find particular articles.

Igotjelly · 28/04/2022 13:22

katem98 · 28/04/2022 13:19

This bit made me chuckleGrin

Personally I like to think the whale was probably a double agent 🕵️‍♀️🐳

Ijsbear · 28/04/2022 13:23

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2022 13:10

On March 29, the Uzbek Foreign Ministry said Komilov had not been seen in public for more than a week because he was being treated for an unspecified "chronic illness" in Tashkent before being taken to an unspecified foreign country for further treatment.

Oh aye, that 'chronic illness' might have been something that'll affect his family very soon unless he develops a strange stiffness of the tongue, right.

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2022 13:34

Mike Mazarr AT MMazarr
Very struck by recent analysis + reporting that highlights a riskhighly uncertain but not so far widely discussedof a significant escalation of the Ukraine war in coming weeks. What it means, and what it implies for US policy, are not at all clear
twitter.com/MMazarr/status/1519160808172888067
Thread on escalation.

It got this simple response which sums things up:

Edward Hunter Christie AT EHunterChristie
1/5 I keep on feeling underwhelmed by commentary which puts great stress on fear and on escalation risks without clarity on concrete scenarios and concrete alternatives. It's simple: if Russia attacks NATO, the Alliance goes to war against Russia. There is no dilemma.

The #Kremlin forced the current war upon the world. For NATO nations to do nothing to help Ukraine would be not only unconscionable, but also strategically blind, in terms of deterring future wars, and in terms of upholding international norms of the highest value to us.

As a result we are compelled to assist Ukraine materially. It is an important Western interest to massively raise Ukraine's chances of survival and Russia's probability of defeat. However we refrain from outright intervention as we aim not to expand the scope of the war.

So now the fear: what if RUS attacks a NATO Ally? We will have no choice, we will fight back. We would then be just like the Ukrainians: there is no bargaining with an aggressor who razes your cities and murders your civilians. There is only subjugation or defiance.

So, there is no dilemma and the trajectory is already clear. We will not attack Russia. The choice of escalation is entirely with Moscow. And if they make that choice, our response will be devastating. Keep calm and arm Ukraine. And don't watch Russian TV.

And then that reply got this response:

Phillips P. OBrien AT PhillipsPOBrien
This is a point worth examining. We have lots of stress on what if Russia goes for societal mobilization now (normally by the way by those who argued that Russia would conquer Ukraine quickly). However, societal mobilization is not easy under the best of conditions.

Still voices speak (without evidence) that Russia is some large military power that can almost dictate terms in Ukraine. This article in AT guardian
might be the worst. No evidence given on Russian strength, but an assumption Russia can fight a long war.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/27/ukraine-war-end-putin-russia-talks?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1651068194

(RTB - the above article is written by former BBC journalist Angus Roxburgh - who then got work working for the Kremlin!)

Phillips P. OBrien AT PhillipsPOBrien
People seem to be forgetting that societal mobilization and long war has enormous political, economic and military risks for Russia. Its not just about calling soldiers to the ranks--its about training them and equipping them. Russia is not in the best position to do this at all.

Russia has no training system to handle some mass infusion of untrained personnel. They already have called up this year's normal conscript soldiers (Only 135k because of Russia's demographic crisis) and they are right now being trained.

If they want to train more--they need to set up a training system first to handle more soldiers. This normally takes many months in an efficient system. Only once you have the training system, can you start actually creating your new army.

Just as an example, it takes the US in WWII, even with preparations under way. more than 6 months to start expanding significantly its pool of trained personnel. and its not til more than a year that the numbers really take off.

So the Russians need to train the trainers, then train the new soldiers. According to this AT ISW report, Russian training takes somewhere between 3-6 months.

So under exceptionally efficient systems, you might expect a large army expansion with well trained soldiers in 9 months. Could RUssia do that--doubtful. Probably poorly trained, unmotivated conscripts could be produced, but thats it.

Then you have to equip them. Again, all this blase talk about Russia going to full mobilization misses the fact that Russia is economically weak and now operating under sanctions.

The Russians are already suffering shortfalls in replenishment. It would again take a very efficient and well planned economy to ramp up production under these sanctions. SO arming the new mass army with new weapons will be hard.

Sure, they can get all their oodles of equipment that has been sitting around in storage for years, not being maintained, etc. Their front line stuff has already shown weaknesses. Imagine what the second-line stuff is like

So Russian mobilization requires the establishment of a training system that doesnt exist and the growth of arms production that is being crippled. It would also require an admission by the Russian government that they are losing the war. Thats a political risk.

Is interesting to note that when they called up this year's conscripts, they said they would not be sent to Ukraine. There are stories of RUssian army recruitment stations being burned too. Will people actually want to fight and die in this war? Questionable.

And while the Russians are assembling this force of hastily untrained, not well equipped, and politically questionable conscripts to fight in a war that they have been calling a great success--the Ukrainians will be getting more and better equipment from NATO.

Ukraine is already upgrading its training and will beat the Russians to the punch by getting better prepared soldiers to the front lines months earlier--and thats if Russia acts now.

So understand Russian societal mobilization is not something that can be simply bandied about. It requires action and preparation that the Russian government is clearly reluctant to do. Stop talking about it like its easy and Russia is some large power. Neither is true.

And Russia has to start now. Waiting till May 9 is even too late. Ukraine has already started its societal mobilisation in training and equipment.

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2022 13:35

I bravely battled to defeated the MN Ooops Box of Doom and the stupid thing has crossed things out instead (I did not do this).

BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation · 28/04/2022 13:41

Spy dolphins eh? A cunning plan if ever there was one 😁

Ukraine Invasion: Part 22
Alexandra2001 · 28/04/2022 13:42

What about your job, or someone else’s job, what about your pension when the stock market crashes? What about the bare shelves in the supermarkets and the chemists? what about not being able to afford going to work because you cannot fill up your car? Rolling blackouts?

You know what? if it meant this war in Ukraine ending a day earlier, then yes, the UK also has 171 billionaires, with a combined wealth of approx 600 billion, so instead of us lot taking the hit, how about taxing them 2 or 3 % extra?

We are going into summer and its not in OPEC's interests to see a world depression (leading to super low demand for oil/gas), so they would increase supply to compensate.

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2022 13:51

Canadian Ukrainian Volunteer At CanadianUkrain1
A railway bridge was blown up in the #Melitopol region, near #Ivanivka, through which the #Russian army delivered weapons, ammunition and fuel from #Crimea. This is just the beginning.

Watch out for the bridge to crimea going. I would speculate that its a priority target for Ukraine...

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