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Ukraine Invasion: Part 22

1000 replies

MagicFox · 23/04/2022 10:06

Here we are again

OP posts:
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34
Igotjelly · 23/04/2022 10:07

Checking in. Thanks @MagicFox

JacquelineCarlyle · 23/04/2022 10:09

Also checking in as find these threads so informative.

Natsku · 23/04/2022 10:11

Hopefully bookmarks will work properly now

DFOD · 23/04/2022 10:11

🇺🇦

FantasticButtocks · 23/04/2022 10:16

Excellent, thank you for new thread. Here's hoping that bookmarks work now we're on a new one! 🤞

LoveLarry · 23/04/2022 10:21

Checking in too

Ijsbear · 23/04/2022 10:26

I have to admit - wasn't Brexit enough to realise the power of disinformation and lies? all the stuff about more money for the NHS? the distortions?

This is partly down to the govt itself though. They didn't really take it seriously and they underestimated how disenfranchised and powerless most people feel. That vote where each individual vote made a minute difference, that -meant- something. Mostly if you vote the first-past-the-post system means that anyone in a heartland has no chance to have their voice heard. With Brexit, your vote counted.

But it's more than that. It's the lack of critical thinking that is taught that means it's easier for a govt to guide us. More so in Russia than in here but I suspect that both countries are fed a fair bit of What The Govt Wants You To Hear.

smilingthroughgrittedteeth · 23/04/2022 10:28

Just catching up on the news and read an article on sky news about Moldova

"Moldova's foreign ministry has summoned Moscow's ambassador to express "deep concern" about these comments, which suggested the country's Russian-speaking population was being oppressed."

Surely Russia arent about to start a war with Moldova too?

cloudberry · 23/04/2022 10:30

Marking place. Thank you @MagicFox

saltedcaramelchocolate · 23/04/2022 10:31

Thanks for the new thread. Watched that link showing the children trapped in Mariopol. Those soldiers were so good in their interactions with those children. I really hope that they can all make it out alive. It is difficult to watch and feel so helpless that in 2022 there is no way to rescue them.

Alwayscheerful · 23/04/2022 10:35

F
Placemarking not working.

RedToothBrush · 23/04/2022 10:46

Ijsbear · 23/04/2022 10:26

I have to admit - wasn't Brexit enough to realise the power of disinformation and lies? all the stuff about more money for the NHS? the distortions?

This is partly down to the govt itself though. They didn't really take it seriously and they underestimated how disenfranchised and powerless most people feel. That vote where each individual vote made a minute difference, that -meant- something. Mostly if you vote the first-past-the-post system means that anyone in a heartland has no chance to have their voice heard. With Brexit, your vote counted.

But it's more than that. It's the lack of critical thinking that is taught that means it's easier for a govt to guide us. More so in Russia than in here but I suspect that both countries are fed a fair bit of What The Govt Wants You To Hear.

I think I may have covered this subject on MN before...

...the answer is no.

Why? Because the parties need it to push their shit as its what they all base their campaigns on.

It ranges from LD bar charts and spin doctors which long predate brexit and our current nonsense over party gate.

Whats interesting for Zelensky and Ukraine is a general avoidance of outright lies, which is quite something for a war. Bit by bit trust has built because of this and the contrast with Russia has been stark

I'm not saying Ukraine tells the truth completely here or doesn't surpress bad news - it absolutely does. It is the efforts of positive propaganda and understanding of the power of communication which is measured, uses journalism to its best and stressing the importance of trust and integrity with an audience that really interesting. This is far more compatible with democractic principles.

The fact it harks back to Winston Churchill and the establishment of the current Western Liberal Democracy post war era and its founding principles isn't coincidence. Its always struck me that its a jewish man who once studied law who is the one who 'gets this' more than all those leaders who claim to lead the world in democracy.

No one is perfect. Democracy is an imperfect system. War clouds things.

Yet...

/ends rant and gets off the never-ending soap box until the next time.

Tessi · 23/04/2022 10:48

Checking in, Thank you.

prettybird · 23/04/2022 10:48

Hoping that bookmarks will work on this thread as it was created after the clusterfuck of an upgrade

I have to thank @redtoothbrush for my appreciation of Media Studies as a subject, via her contributions to the Westministender threads Flowers

FrenchBoule · 23/04/2022 10:49

Thanks @MagicFox for new thread.

@Ijsbear some people are so brainwashed/set in their ways that no amount of information is going to convince them otherwise.

I have relatives who are life long Tory supporters. No amount of shameful and disgraceful info about government actions/lies is going to change their mind.

I have friends from Latvia and Lithuania, both former USSR republics so they have relatives in Russia.
Relationships are broken now because these in Russia don’t believe the relatives that Russia invaded Ukraine.

It’s very difficult to navigate the information today, so much of it and many people wouldn’t know where to look for reliable source.

Placemarking btw and wondering whether to join twitter as getting annoyed with constant login/register pop ups. Any tips how to navigate (whom to follow) welcomed 🙂

prettybird · 23/04/2022 10:50

Would also love @DGRossetti to come back. I always value his contributions. A few of the problems from the inept upgrade have been resolved.

PaperTyger · 23/04/2022 11:01

Lisjbear I've seen very good arguments that Brexit lies went both ways.

It's been done today death on here.

I'm finding posting harder Now I have to always log in.
I'm hoping those poor people in the steel plant gets out.

I've lost my patience on this.
You can't negotiate with Putin.
I'd be telling him a humatorian mission is going in to get civilians out.
Fire on them at your perils.
I'd drop leaflets and make sure all Russian soilder know.

dibly · 23/04/2022 11:07

Agree @PaperTyger. We need an urgent humanitarian escape for those people, no more ‘maybe today a few might be able to trickle out’

VeloHostage · 23/04/2022 11:08

.

Ijsbear · 23/04/2022 11:11

/ends rant and gets off the never-ending soap box until the next time Hehe, I do the same ...

Im going to be self indulgent and post a long answer to Mids2019's question on the previous thread here as well as on the old thread. Would like to see what people think ...

mids2019

What are your thoughts on the media coverage generally on this war?

I as split about the means to communicate any Russian 'sucess'.

a) News should be impartial and as full as possible so we should see any Russian victory and gain some knowledge of any Ukrainian casualties.

b) We are allies to Ukraine and our media should refrain from highlighting any Russian success as it could act to reduce Ukranian morale and give Russia information about Ukrainian weaknesses. We do not want to be inadvertently part of any Russian propaganda exercise in addition.

what are your thoughts?

Mids Ive been thinking a lot about this question of yours.

tldr: news should be The Varnished Truth.

a) News should be impartial and as full as possible so we should see any Russian victory and gain some knowledge of any Ukrainian casualties

On the surface this seems the best. Don't treat your population like children. Don't hide the shit. But ... that doesn't take into account human nature. Morale in war is very important. Especially in a democracy the more people are unhappy/discouraged, the more there will be a desire to disengage and being a democracy and with an eye on re-election, the politicians will be influenced. They have to be, or it's no longer a democracy.

But as a mass we can be affected by bad news and by good. The will to carry on might waver if there is bad news, to the point of people saying "well we shouldnt pour more materials and effort into a lost cause". Yet if those materials and efforts can help the, let's say, Serrenland's (made up name!) army through a rough time then it's worth persevering, and a temporary loss can be overcome and things go better. Or the losses might mount and the Serrenlanders fail. Or the resources sent could allow thousands of people to be evacuated to safety, so even though the war is lost a great deal was gained. That becomes clear in hindsight though, whether or not it was worth keeping going. But making a decision to withdraw based wholly on the mass mood when something is going wrong is a bad idea.

It's clear even from these threads how terrified people are by the very idea of nuclear explosions. That degree of terror is not reasonable. Understandable, but not reasonable (anxiety is a bitch). Any nuclear attacks are not going to be the first recourse; there are extremely skilled people working to make sure it doesn't happen, and one nuclear device going off is not the same as the end of the world. But people are scared and in the end Putin is using that fear and it's working.

So clear heads need to decide. Feelings are great motivators but not always sensible or wise; they need to be governed by thought.

Another factor is that people in charge have much more info than most people in the country do. Not all that info can be shared for obvious reasons, you don't tell the enemy about the best weopons you have or your strategic plans.

Some information can be literally true but on its own present a partial or wrong picture. The old adage of the blind men and the elephant's tail and trunk and feet applies.

So I don't think that the full truth is a good idea.

But.

b) We are allies to Ukraine and our media should refrain from highlighting any Russian success as it could act to reduce Ukranian morale and give Russia information about Ukrainian weaknesses. We do not want to be inadvertently part of any Russian propaganda exercise in addition.

Just cannot go along with this. We are not, as a country, very wise or steady. But I don't think we should be fed happypap either. The amount of information provision has risen hugely in the last decades and, thank god, independent information provision at that. But the level of mass analytical thinking eg at university has gone down compared to 40 years ago (at least so my older university teacher-friends tell me). (Damn you, Murdoch, you evil man). But it doesn't mean we should just go along with feeding only good news, however much easier that is to hear emotionally. The govt should at least try to treat us as people who can and are able to take in some bad info. I regard the role of a govt as being to govern but also to try to raise standards, not allow them to sink to the lowest emotion-driven level. Of course that's a bit hard with Bojo in charge ... }

So the news needs to be a balance between the hard truth and happypap. But for me, the balance needs to be rather more on the side of truth than propaganda.

There are many many more factors you could add in here but it's already way too long a post =) (also ive got a headache, sorry if it's a bit of a messy post)

But to sum up again

TLDR - the Varnished Truth.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 23/04/2022 11:20

Thanks for the new thread.

(dons hard hat) I'm sorry to say that I have been very ambivalent politically. I grew up in a house where dad voted Tory and mum voted Labour and it was an unhappy one. I saw politics as divisive from an early age and all the parties got on my nerves for different reasons. I have voted for both sides and I do always vote. My hubby is politically conversant, studied politics for his degree, and wanted a political career but said he said he didn't want to spend the rest of his life kissing arses or keeping me locked in the attic 🤣. I guess I now follow the mantra of influencing my little corner of the world, and a bit beyond, and on supporting humanitarian causes. I don't if this is checking out. This war is making me think.i might have been.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 23/04/2022 11:23

dibly · 23/04/2022 11:07

Agree @PaperTyger. We need an urgent humanitarian escape for those people, no more ‘maybe today a few might be able to trickle out’

Agree @dibly and @PaperTyger

I didn't know if there are any rallies in London or another major city to appeal to the UN for urgent intervention as I'm not on social media.

KonTikki · 23/04/2022 11:34

.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 23/04/2022 11:34

Sky news reporting a daring night time helicopter drop to rearm Mariupol? Am I dreaming?

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 23/04/2022 11:37

Sky News: Russia has shifted a dozen crack units from the shattered port of Mariupol, redeploying them on the eastern battlefront, as Ukraine said it managed to bring supplies to the city's besieged Azovstal steel works.
It comes as a Ukraine presidential adviser said Russian forces were trying to conduct operations to storm the area, which is the last stronghold of Ukrainian troops in the ruined city.

The adviser said Russia has resumed airstrikes on the site.

While Russia claims to have "liberated" Mariupol, the latest UK military intelligence suggests Russian troops have made no major gains in the country in the last 24 hours, with Ukrainian counter-attacks continuing to hinder their progress.

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