Why is children's behaviour worse these days?

[salviapages]

I recently retrained as a primary teacher, did placements in a few schools then worked as a supply teacher so seen a wide range and I've been shocked at the behaviour. Nothing like how I remember kids in my class at primary being.

Every teacher I've spoken to about this says behaviour has gotten worse over the years and I've seen mumsnetters say the same, including in the current thread about teachers leaving the profession.

So - why is this? Have we changed how we raise children? Have schools changed? Why the rise in bad behaviour?

Children don’t fear their parents these days like they did many years ago.

Good.

I am probably going to get flamed for saying this but I think you can go too far with the "validation of feelings" for ever little incident and all this talk about "believe in yourself, you are special" "you are my everything" talk. Of course we want to boost a child who is lacking in confidence, and protect our DC from life's hard knocks. As with most things though, there is a balance to be struck.

Of course, our DC are very special to us, and they should mean the world to us, and their feelings matter to us very much as their parents (or they should) but as other posters have said, what works in the home doesn't necessarily prepare a child for life in the outside world, and parents nowadays seem to expect teachers, and schools, and scout leader to approach their individual child in the same way, when a teacher or a scout leader's priority has to be that everyone in the group gets the same level of attention and everyone is "special".

Of course teachers appreciate every child's individual value and character, and try to adapt their teaching to that as far as possible, but sometimes it is, practically speaking, not possible.

Let's face it, we are all special to our parents (hopefully we are) and are sometimes afforded special privileges at home, but out in the real world, no one is more special than the other person are they? Well they shouldn't be.

Out in the real world, usually in their first job, having been given totally unrealistic expectations from their parents, from TV, from the Internet, about how the world "should" treat them, these DC are then brought down to earth with a bump, and it can be quite a disappointment and quite challenging for some teens to have to learn that very sadly, sometimes the outside world doesn't give a crap about them, except in terms of the work they produce and the effort they put in.

I think it is kinder and much more realistic, to prepare a child by saying "you are very, very special to us" but outside in the world, we all have to get stuck in and consider everyone else around us, because their feelings matter too.

And a lot of living life as a "successful" adult is I'm afraid about delaying gratification and doing a lot of stuff we don't particularly want to do. And in many cases I don't think we are preparing DC well for that. And that's not their fault. With screens in particular, there is no delay of gratification and the reward comes after little to no effort.

It's a question of emphasis and as I said previously, it's about balance.

@Flutterby106

This week I raised my voice at my 3yo in stress. She told me to take a deep breath and calm down and that me shouting scared her, I told her I was sorry, that I am working at learning how to control my emotions better

Unbelievable. Good luck to her when she tries that on with her teachers.

But she won't? She doesn't now at preschool. I'm her mum, it's a different relationship, I parent her, her teachers teach her.

Although I'd agree with her that anyone shouting in a classroom setting has already lost control, and needs to rethink their strategies prior to that point.

It just seems to encourage every child to over analyse their feelings and be too introspective, resulting in (I believe) pathologising perfectly normal emotions and behaviours. I believe this is what has caused the boom in ‘gender identity’ problems.

Yes, I feel this way too

This is very accurate and other posters have pointed out the need for some parents to pathologise every feeling or emotion into something that needs some specialist input, this feeds into what you're saying.

Another poster referred to respect and saying that they dont use the term to refer to where a person defers to another (so a child deferring to a parent for example)

The problem with treating children as equals where their feelings or needs are on an equal par with adults means that children feel unsafe, they need to feel that the person caring for them is in charge, is containing them and part of that is deferring to the authority figure. To remove that is to risk children feeling there is nothing underneath them and that creates fear and acting out.

Every generation thinks the next is worse behaved. Some of it is selective memory. If you are a teacher you are looking at a whole class equally. You see the naughtiness, in fact need to notice it more as you need to deal with it and it stands out in your mind more at the end of the day than quiet Alice who sat doing her maths all day.

When you remember your own school days you remember your friends and yourself-people who end up becoming teachers, or journalists who write thundering opinion pieces about slipping standards were probably the attentive types who did well and found similar friends. This is even more marked when they talk about secondary school standards. They think back and forget that in our day there was more setting and
streaming, and that there wasn't the same emphasis on every kid who could scrape a foreign language or just about be in the 40% going to university doing more academic subjects.

The studious kids, who tend to be better behaved (or at least badly behaved in a sneaky, emotional bullying way instead of shouting or punching somebody so it went under the radar), did the academic stuff. The rest were sent to do practical stuff like boring holes in pieces of metal or cookery or some such. It regularly all kicked off in some of those classes-we were told about incidents but it didn't loom large in our experience. Not saying that sort of segregation was right for everybody, some kids who matured a bit later might have missed out and some bright would be chefs and carpenters were dissuaded, but it made for a better behaved environment for teachers and journalists etc.

Also, I'm not sure it's the done thing now, particularly at primary, to make kids stand in the corridor and miss most of the lesson, which helped.

@EV117

Lots of reason, but the most predominant reason, parents. Child does something wrong, parent is informed, takes personal offence immediately ‘he wouldn’t have done that, it can’t be true, I’m not accepting that..’ or child is given a consequence, tells parent, parent storms in ‘why did she miss 5 minutes of her break, she didn’t do anything wrong…’ Said children witness all this and are very aware of their parents’ attitudes. It has a massive impact on how they respect the school and it’s rules, they simply think it doesn’t apply to them because that’s what their parents are showing them.

Well a lot of the parents today that display these behaviours were raised in the way that a lot of posters seem to think was so much better. It doesn't seem to have produced adults that parent in an acceptable way. So it can't be that great ,can it?

@PandoraRocks

Pretty obvious really - the rot started when they abolished corporal punishment in schools. The Welsh and Scottish governments banning smacking was idiotic. Also, kids are pandered to today like they are royalty.

I grew up in the 60s and 70s when teachers were respected. There were never more than one or two bad kids in a class and they were swiftly dealt with. I was hardly ever smacked at home because I didn't want to get into trouble and feared the consequences.

Last week I saw a small child rolling on the floor in Tesco having a massive tantrum, screaming his head off. The mother just standing there ignoring him! I wouldn't have dared behave like that as a child!

You're in favour of hitting children, then?

@Organictangerine honestly, my children behave well. No complaints in daycare settings, they behave well for other people who look after them (believe me I'd be told if not) and I take them out and about all the time with no bother. I can trust them to talk politely to adults, to play nicely with each other and other kids, and to amuse themselves, they don't use screens other than TV at home. I know we all have rose tinted specs about our own children but I'd be surprised if there was a dramatic change or U-turn in the next 6 months before my eldest starts school. They have their moments like all kids of course. But so do I and I'm 31. I don't know, its really important to me that they see our family as a team, I'm the captain of course but they are important valued players. And I do think that children find their place in the world from a secure family unit.

I'm not saying it's the only way to do it but it really is working for us, we all end the day happily 99.9% of the time which is more than I can say for my own family when I was younger. I only jumped on to explain gentle parenting as I felt it was being bashed unfairly.

The point someone made about encouraging introspection to a negative degree, I do think about that sometimes and agree it's a delicate balance, something to think about more for me.

@bellac11

This is very accurate and other posters have pointed out the need for some parents to pathologise every feeling or emotion into something that needs some specialist input, this feeds into what you're saying.

Another poster referred to respect and saying that they dont use the term to refer to where a person defers to another (so a child deferring to a parent for example)

The problem with treating children as equals where their feelings or needs are on an equal par with adults means that children feel unsafe, they need to feel that the person caring for them is in charge, is containing them and part of that is deferring to the authority figure. To remove that is to risk children feeling there is nothing underneath them and that creates fear and acting out.

Swap needs for wants and you might have a point.

A child's needs are absolutely on par with the needs of adults and just as normal .

My 2 year old knows that no means no and I do not back down. Because of that he is an absolute angel and I get compliments on how well behaved he is. Flip side of that, I've been called too strict and probably worse behind my back by family members of my age. I think parenting these days is more follow the kids lead rather than the kids needs to follow the parents. Makes for some very tricky children imo

Yes and gentle parenting is awful. I've yet to see it have a good outcome

@Porcelainrabbit88

I am probably going to get flamed for saying this but I think you can go too far with the "validation of feelings" for ever little incident and all this talk about "believe in yourself, you are special" "you are my everything" talk. Of course we want to boost a child who is lacking in confidence, and protect our DC from life's hard knocks. As with most things though, there is a balance to be struck.

Of course, our DC are very special to us, and they should mean the world to us, and their feelings matter to us very much as their parents (or they should) but as other posters have said, what works in the home doesn't necessarily prepare a child for life in the outside world, and parents nowadays seem to expect teachers, and schools, and scout leader to approach their individual child in the same way, when a teacher or a scout leader's priority has to be that everyone in the group gets the same level of attention and everyone is "special".

Of course teachers appreciate every child's individual value and character, and try to adapt their teaching to that as far as possible, but sometimes it is, practically speaking, not possible.

Let's face it, we are all special to our parents (hopefully we are) and are sometimes afforded special privileges at home, but out in the real world, no one is more special than the other person are they? Well they shouldn't be.

Out in the real world, usually in their first job, having been given totally unrealistic expectations from their parents, from TV, from the Internet, about how the world "should" treat them, these DC are then brought down to earth with a bump, and it can be quite a disappointment and quite challenging for some teens to have to learn that very sadly, sometimes the outside world doesn't give a crap about them, except in terms of the work they produce and the effort they put in.

I think it is kinder and much more realistic, to prepare a child by saying "you are very, very special to us" but outside in the world, we all have to get stuck in and consider everyone else around us, because their feelings matter too.

And a lot of living life as a "successful" adult is I'm afraid about delaying gratification and doing a lot of stuff we don't particularly want to do. And in many cases I don't think we are preparing DC well for that. And that's not their fault. With screens in particular, there is no delay of gratification and the reward comes after little to no effort.

It's a question of emphasis and as I said previously, it's about balance.

I completely agree with this and I realised it too late. If I had my time again, I would be a lot less precious about the small slights and injustices DC experienced. I'd just say, 'life is so unfair sometimes. Want to come for a bike ride?' instead of wading in or taking sides.

I do have to explain to DS2 that being sad sometimes or bored sometimes or left out sometimes is totally normal. FOMO is normal. Watching other people get what you really want is normal. It's just life. It doesn't mean there is anything drastically wrong. The tougher aspects of life have indeed been pathologised and this really has caused terrible problems.

There are two definitions of respect, one meaning defer to and the other meaning consider another's needs and feelings. I definitely consider the second meaning important but I think the first is outdated and doesn't have a place. But if teachers are going in expecting the first kind of respect and students have only ever known the second, then there's definitely going to be a clash.

While I agree with some things you are saying BertieBotts, there are quite a few situations and places in life, for example in the potentially dangerous extra curricular activities I am involved in, where it is necessary for dc and teens to "defer" to those who have more skill, experience and knowledge than them, and more awareness of the potential dangers. Deferring in these circumstances, keeps them safe.

The reasons for "deferring" are explained, sometimes before or afterwards and thorough training is given, but sometimes a child is required in the moment, to defer to and trust an adult without questioning, particularly when something unpredictable happens. And learning to trust and learn from an experienced and knowledgeable adult , and indeed having the humility to recognise that someone is more skilled and knowledgeable than you and that their knowledge could be useful to you, is not always a bad skill to develop in life!

@AliasGrape

Although it is bigger than allowing a child to eat or not eat a meal, isn’t it? Everything is a choice which is hard when an institution is catering for the many. Actually I’m pretty certain I haven’t taught children who have been parented in this way

No - that's not gentle parenting, not as I understand it anyway.

It's not 'everything is a choice'. In the example the pp gave about dinner - there was no choice as to whether the TV was turned off. It was going off because it was dinner time. But the parent can acknowledge that the child feels upset about that, that it's hard when we have to stop doing something we enjoy, and show empathy and a bit of consideration for their feelings by allowing them a minute to lie face down on the sofa and regulate themselves, and in theory they had the choice to stay there/ not join dinner time but in fact the child trotted in to join dinner a few moments later quite happily, as usually happens with toddlers. The boundary is very much there - tv off and dinner served at dinner time. The choice is to eat or not eat it, but to be fair that's the choice whether you drag them screaming to the dinner table or not. Unless you're planning to forcefeed. Just like in your classroom example you can say 'Art lesson is finished now, I can see you're sad about that. I love how much you love art, that's so great. We will do art again on Wednesday/ Maybe if we get everything finished in time this afternoon you will have time to do a bit more/ Perhaps you could take a sketchpad out at break with you - whatever is possible/ appropriate to offer. But the art things are going away now and it's time for French. - You've acknowledged their feelings and given them the language they might need to express themselves about it next time, recognised it's important to them but also held the boundary. If a child really struggled with transitions between lessons there's all sorts of stuff that you will no doubt already have in place around that, but it definitely won't have come from the fact that their parent didn't force them to eat dinner when they didn't want to, or just gave them a bit of understanding and time to process their feelings before starting dinner as was the case in that example.

I don't really see any conflict between gentle parenting done properly and good classroom behaviour. I promise you the children I've taught where behaviour has been a big issue have not been the ones who have parents who are doing gentle parenting right.

good , solid, predictable parenting with clear routines, boundaries and emotional warmth - it keeps being suggested on this thread that this is the opposite of gentle parenting when it's exactly what everything I've read about gentle parenting/ every example I've seen of it done well is based on. It's certainly what I'm aiming for.

Maybe it's the word gentle that's confusing - both to those who claim to be following it and to those who criticise it.

That’s interesting. Thank you for your detailed response.

Although I'd agree with her that anyone shouting in a classroom setting has already lost control, and needs to rethink their strategies prior to that point.

So you think that teachers never shout? Actually they do, and it has nothing to do with losing control. A teacher who stands there like a melting ice lolly asking nicely for children to do something would last about half a day in a classroom.

There's a difference between shouting in anger and raising your voice to gain control of a classroom. I teach adults and I often have to raise my voice to regain the group after we've had a break or done a group activity and they're all talking together. But I never 'shout' at them, obviously.

@foxlover47

Forgive me if I sound thick here , but screentime especially on certain games such as Roblox adopt me , requires a lot of concentration, to play the game , to participate in trades , building there houses etc , so why are people thinking or seeing that children cannot concentrate anymore ? Is it because real life is boring in class in comparison then and to wit mind switches off ? My girl is 10 she loves her screentime but I haven't seen that she cannot concentrate in the real world so far Genuinely wondering this ?

Some are great - Minecraft is amazing for all sorts of skills too. I think the issue is that some games are meant to lure you in to play for longer and longer - so children become addicted. Fortnite was particularly awful. Most of the games are also fast moving, full of action and in short bursts. They do seem to have had an impact on many children’s attention spans in recent years and it would also match the time when children suddenly had access to tablets and phones too. It’s anecdotal, of course and some children can still concentrate on writing and reading ‘old-style’ books for 60 minutes - just fewer children than fifteen years ago and significantly fewer than twenty-five years ago. We are encouraged to plan lessons for the goldfish generation (not chalk and talk) but I kind of feel we need to be boosting their skills to concentrate!

@Goldbar

There's a difference between shouting in anger and raising your voice to gain control of a classroom. I teach adults and I often have to raise my voice to regain the group after we've had a break or done a group activity and they're all talking together. But I never 'shout' at them, obviously.

Nope my kids say the teachers shout at individual kids that are misbehaving not shouting at the whole class to get their attention, my son has a boy in his class that is a nightmare and the teacher often shouts at him and sends him to the head teachers office.

I'm a primary school teacher and most children I teach are lovely and beautifully behaved. I definitely have one or two children a year with behavioural difficulties but there is always a reason for this. I really don't like such sweeping statements about children.

So you think that teachers never shout? Actually they do, and it has nothing to do with losing control. A teacher who stands there like a melting ice lolly asking nicely for children to do something would last about half a day in a classroom.

I don't think a teacher should be shouting in anger, no, especially at primary age kids. I think there are other ways to show authority.

I'm not a teacher but I did work in education before kids, but in a social care capacity, so I'm not naive to the difficulties. But the teachers I admired professionally, I never knew them to shout, unless someone was in immediate danger. Raising voices to get everyone's attention, as a pp said, ok.

I don't think it is. I think we might see it more with wider media, but I'd say 90% of the kids I see are far better behaved than I was at their age. And last I read, the younger generation was doing a lot less risky teen things than we did and parents are spending more time with their kids on average.

As for why in schools - schools hands are tied because there is so little funding for the kind of support that would actually help. Schools are now meant to care for everyone and fill in all the gaps in society issues that are failing kids and families with a shoestring and a prayer & smile while they do it with all the other objectives heaped onto them.

When I was in school, I was the wild kid. I was the kid who regularly lost emotional control. I was the kid who jumped in a construction site at nine during recess. Same year, I swore in reference to a teacher - not at her, but while walking away from her, repeatedly, apparently a lot louder than I thought. I was the kid who probably came in smelling of weed and had a mother who banned my getting detentions cause she hated driving me in early. I was 'lucky' in that, having grown up where and when I did, I was able to get access to therapy and group therapy in school that helped teach me the skills to be less reckless. Without that, I'm not sure I'd be here. Not all my previous classmates are.

My DDs' school is considered exemplary in our area for having therapy access for 30 kids as part of dealing with the fact CAHMs has a 2+ year waiting list. All I can think is that it's a good start, but it's not nearly enough. We have TAs and Learning Mentors basically taking on the role that counselors did for me. We have PSHE that is discussed as important social education, but it's squeezed by all the academics and is basically the dumping grounds for all the life skill 'shoulds' that actual social learning rarely can get a look it. It's largely treated as just being in a group will teach those skills and it doesn't anymore than being in a room with musical instruments rarely gets musicians. School environments amplify and with so little support, it's difficult to improve things.

@Flutterby106

Although I'd agree with her that anyone shouting in a classroom setting has already lost control, and needs to rethink their strategies prior to that point.

So you think that teachers never shout? Actually they do, and it has nothing to do with losing control. A teacher who stands there like a melting ice lolly asking nicely for children to do something would last about half a day in a classroom.

I've shouted as a (Primary) teacher but I've never considered it to be my finest hour, it's pretty poor teaching and I worked hard to develop other strategies so that I didn't need to resort to shouting.

Behaviour management was frequently mentioned as a strength in my appraisals so I definitely wasn't a melting ice lolly.

I haven't returned to teaching since having DD though. I intend to. I'm not sure how the parenting approaches I've been learning about will apply to the classroom, it's definitely something to think about.

I really think it's sad that so many posters jumped on to roll their eyes and laugh at the idea that an adult (parent) might apologise to their child for shouting. I apologise to my DD if I've shouted and I always intend to. I don't want this to be a house/ family in which we shout at each other, so I intend to model that by not shouting. When I get overwhelmed and slip up, I'll say sorry. I won't reverse any decisions or drop any boundaries, she will still know that I mean what I say - but I don't think I need to shout to achieve that. It's a good thing to model how you can reflect on your actions, resolve things and admit when you were wrong surely - or again is that something only to be expected from children?

It's definitely down to poor parenting. My niece has awful tantrums, which her parents pander to. They run around pleading with her, and give in to ridiculous demands - like allowing chocolate before dinner. Does she do it when being cared for by her Nan? Absolutely not, because Nanna won't have a bar of it.

I see so many badly behaved kids in supermarkets. The general parental comment is "Please don't do that Toby. Please don't kick Mummy" - or whatever - in my day we would have been walloped over the head and taken home.

Yes, children should be scared of the repercussions if they misbehave. Otherwise the lunatics are running the asylum.

If a 4 year old kicked me, they would never ever dare to again, I can tell you that much. And I certainly would be asking them to please not kick me again. I mean, come on!!

AliasGrape I wonder if you are one of the teachers I met at work and admired! You really sound like you could be!

I agree, obviously not saying I'm 100% right but how many of us have had interactions with adults who refuse to apologize when they've messed up? Romantic partners, colleagues, even our own parents? Hell would freeze over before my MIL would never apologize for anything, she'd see it as a massive loss of face and embarrassing. I really don't want my child to take that idea forward in her relationships, I want her to know it's ok to mess up and apologize, reconnect, try and be better. I can only do that by modelling it to her.