Why is children's behaviour worse these days?

[salviapages]

I recently retrained as a primary teacher, did placements in a few schools then worked as a supply teacher so seen a wide range and I've been shocked at the behaviour. Nothing like how I remember kids in my class at primary being.

Every teacher I've spoken to about this says behaviour has gotten worse over the years and I've seen mumsnetters say the same, including in the current thread about teachers leaving the profession.

So - why is this? Have we changed how we raise children? Have schools changed? Why the rise in bad behaviour?

@Lemonsandlemonade then that's up to her - but the telly wouldn't be going back on, and we'd still eat without her! And I'd probably offer something boring like plain porridge or toast right before bed so she wouldn't go to bed hungry.

So my boundary would remain firm - no TV, and dinner served now. And the natural consequence of her not coming to eat would be missing out on her evening meal, and while it is my parental duty to make sure she doesn't starve, I am not a short order cook nor a cafe!

But I wouldn't be shouting, or forcing anything. The root word.of discipline is 'to teach' and I like to let natural consequences unfold, unless anyone is in imminent danger or she's inconveniencing members of the public!

@gingerhills
@ReggaetonLente
How does it work in a classroom? All of those children who have been given options are not used to doing what they are told so if they are doing art and I tell them they need to stop as it’s French, is their expectation I will let them decide? If they don’t like French they may just do hours of art! Some children might still be doing maths from the first thing in the morning because they didn’t want to stop. I know there are schools like this (which are not generally well regarded by most parents) but most state schools have to run to a timetable and children are expected to develop skills even if they ‘don’t want’.

Will your ‘gentle parenting’ make your children seem disruptive in the classroom or are there some non-negotiables? Do they understand the difference between school and home?

@BustopherPonsonbyJones - but EYFS encourages allowing the youngest children to make choices about their activities now, and over reception and then year 1 they transition to the more formal classroom setting. So it clearly isn't the case that if you've ever given them a choice they'll never learn to accept the more rigid school day - that's exactly the transition that all children make.

@bustopherponsonbyjones I haven't really crossed that bridge as my two are both under 5, but my elder one certainly understands that at preschool she listens to her teachers. She is shown respect and is listened to and she has learned that that's how to interact with others. Obviously I'm only a few years in but she was great when her sister was born and is good with other kids, I never worry about her not playing nicely etc. I worry less about controlling her behaviour and more about modelling how I would like her to behave myself, and so far it does work.

People want to be friends with their children. It is perfectly ok for your child to occasionally dislike you because you say no.

When I was younger there was a much clearer distinction between the generations. Whilst I’m glad that people can have more choices at all ages it’s less structured and structure brings order.

But they have to move to the formal education setting at some point whilst still dealing with the gentle parenting technique at home. That’s a difficult thing to manage for the children at the age of 7 and is going to mean they find it harder to focus on the information and skills they should be learning.

I have been teaching a long time and have never taught a child who has been parented in this way so I am intrigued how it transfers to school if you don’t go down the O’Neill route.

@Hospedia

Children with SEN are not to blame for rhe behaviour of children without SEN.

They are not saying that.

What they are saying is children with bigger SEN are in mainstream classrooms.
While I'm just out of the classroom door sorting out Bob's tantrum and calming him down due to him being very overwhelmed due to his needs. Jo will no doubt take advantage of this situation and wind someone else up in some way. So once I'm back from sorting Bob, I need to unpick what Jo has done and sort out any issues there. This is now 20 mins into my lesson and I'm yet to teach.
There are children who learn how to take advantage of situations, normally the class clown. But situations are now bigger due to the needs of the children being bigger and they are in bigger classes.

Even 10 years ago the threat of calling home about behaviour used to be enough to stop low level behaviour in a classroom. Now it doesn't mean anything as the parents say to the teacher what the teacher wants to hear, and then gives the child no further consequences and sometimes even encourages the behaviour.

@ClaryFairchild

If I compare it to when I was a child, then being hit, bloody hard, was a consequence for anything resembling bad behaviour, or just being around when your parent was in a bad mood. A lot of children were, quite frankly, terrorised into submission, and society is paying the price for it now with a lot of mental health problems.

Some of these children are now parents and don't know how to be firm without going over board, they were never taught what loving discipline was. They don't want to parent like their parents did so take a to gentle approach. So their children run wild.

I think there is a lot of truth in this. And the literature is only beginning to catch up.

Most positive parenting/collaborative parenting resources are written with an overly controlling audience in mind. We all lean slightly one way or the other (too controlling/authoritarian vs too permissive) and apparently the split is 80:20 with too authoritarian being the majority. Cultural norms and the parenting that we experienced as children (so, what we have learned about "good parenting") are also likely to lean authoritarian over permissive.

Therefor a lot of positive/gentle/collaborative resources are written as "how to be less controlling" - have fewer boundaries, only make the boundary for good reason, uphold a boundary without conflict, loosen your boundary to let your child have more freedom as long as it doesn't matter, consider your child's perspective.

If you're naturally too controlling then these things are helpful as they help calibrate you towards the middle which is balanced. For example, when getting your child dressed, you may have previously been quite uptight about which colours go together, and you may take this advice and see actually, it doesn't matter - let them choose red top and orange trousers together if that is what they want to wear.

The problem is the 20% of parents who default to too-permissive. And that's an old stat - 20% is a sizeable minority, so it might still be correct but I wonder if it's not even more prevalent today due to this backlash, wanting to do things differently to the way our parent's generation did things. Or we're just seeing an overrepresentation because more of the 20% will be drawn to ideas/labels like "gentle" "respectful" and fewer of the 80% are because they can come across as weak or ineffective.

If you lean permissive perhaps due to people-pleasing tendencies your parenting might look a bit like this:
Only have a boundary when you really have to, because conflict is scary and upsetting your child seems mean so it needs to really be necessary.
Uphold boundaries in underhand ways such as distraction or prevention without explanation/discussion because that is drawing attention to something you may rather avoid
Boundary is right at the edge of what's acceptable because you are hoping that the child will magically do the right thing so you don't need to uphold the boundary at all
Child's needs/wants come before mine because my needs were so ignored as a child

So you can see that this advice: Have fewer boundaries, looser boundaries, be more gentle in enforcing them, consider child's needs more - this is all going the wrong way and doesn't help calibrate at all. The result is that parents end up in crisis because their already-loose boundaries are even looser, the way they try to enforce them is really unclear and ineffective, they feel guilty if they ever have a need that conflicts with their child, and they become completely irate and frustrated when their child, mystified by this lack of leadership, doesn't automatically comply when the parent does occasionally try to force a limit, and the parent ends up feeling resentful: I do so much for you, I let you have so much, I am asking for one thing back and you don't give it to me.

It doesn't work, it's not balanced because it needs to be recalibrated the other way - parent needs permission to centre themselves (put own oxygen mask on first) and have tighter, clearer and more frequent boundaries because this helps the parent to uphold them in a calm and confident way which makes kids feel safe. But very very few of the resources for gentle parenting explain this or offer any useful information about it. Sometimes there is something vague about not being a martyr and filling up your own cup, but it's never spelled out about the difference between default-controlling vs default-permissive and how this affects boundaries in particular. The other gentle/positive/etc techniques work really well so most people won't abandon the method completely, but will always struggle with boundaries until they have this realisation.

In this example the parent would never have tried to restrict their child's clothing choice to begin with, so in following the advice to "only make boundaries that matter" may decide to let their child stay in pyjamas because they don't really want to get dressed and since they are at home, it doesn't really matter, does it? But then struggle later, because they need to leave the house and now they have more steps to complete before they are able to leave and the child is very resistant. Whereas for the controlling parent (who is now more balanced and in the middle) it wouldn't have even occurred to them to bypass getting dressed, getting dressed is something that needs to be done, and therefore they may still have resistance later when it is time to go out, but resistance over something like a coat, shoes or car seat is much easier to deal with than resistance over every single piece of clothing AND coat AND shoes AND car seat.

@Bakingwithmyboys

See I’m not sure I believe in these constant phone calls home when a child has misbehaved at school. You are in charge of my child you give them a consequence there and then to learn from. Not expect parents to deal with it hours later when a young child has probably forgotten what it was even about.

Our school has certainly gone soft. A two minute chat is nothing to a six year old. If he can run riot a 2 minute chat is worth it! But if he had to sit there an write lines, or watch all the other children play with toys whilst he sat out he would soon think again.

He is a challenging child but he knows at home when to stop. Once he gets his warning and he knows I’ll follow through he stops.

At school he knows he can do as he likes as there’s no consequences.

[quote ReggaetonLente]@bustopherponsonbyjones I haven't really crossed that bridge as my two are both under 5, but my elder one certainly understands that at preschool she listens to her teachers. She is shown respect and is listened to and she has learned that that's how to interact with others. Obviously I'm only a few years in but she was great when her sister was born and is good with other kids, I never worry about her not playing nicely etc. I worry less about controlling her behaviour and more about modelling how I would like her to behave myself, and so far it does work.[/quote]
We do a lot of that in work generally it works but there are times no has to be no.

The ableism on this thread is revolting. Posters saying children used to be institutionalised as though that was a good thing, implying that the behaviour of a child with additional needs is in some way to blame for the behaviour of other children, directly or indirectly, or blaming parents for the additional needs of their children. It’s horrendous to realise that this is how many people view children like mine. It makes me wonder how many of the teachers and parents at his school think like this about him.

I have been teaching a long time and have never taught a child who has been parented in this way so I am intrigued how it transfers to school if you don’t go down the O’Neill route.

The way @ReggaetonLente describes? You think you've never taught a child who was allowed to choose whether or not to eat a meal when they were 3? I'm pretty certain you have, and what that suggests is that it doesn't make a visible difference.

Lack of discipline, lack of respect, poor diets. The amount of young kids I see at 8am on the way to school drinking energy drinks.

I’m a primary teacher who has thought on this at length. So many factors lead to change like this, but the key ones - at least relative to the children I teach - seem to be:

• The reduction in specialist provision for children with additional needs, leading to them in unsuitable mainstream placements who can’t meet their needs. This can easily disrupt the behaviour of an entire class or year group.
• The need for both parents to be working and thus have less time to focus on the foundations of parenting. We as a a family are guilty of this too. Despite having excellent grandparent childcare while we both work full time, we as a family do struggle to maintain consistent expectations for our 3yo, as (understandably) her grandparents want to be more lenient and fun with her.
• The big one: an emphasis on gentle parenting gone too far. We all want to parent our children in a different way from the strict fear-led approach of the past. However, IME this seems to have gone the other way and no one wants to be seen to say no to their children. On mat leave for a second time a fellow teacher friend and I have frequently had to deal with 2/3/4yo children running riot at groups and trampling the babies. Parents have actually thanked us for stepping in and (kindly but firmly) dealing with their children!

All of this is anecdotal and from my personal experience, and of course the economic/social/emotional pressures on a lot of families are immense at the moment, but these three issues seem to be key.

No quick fix sadly and immensely stressful for us teachers, but I suppose the positive is that we are raising generations of independent thinkers who know their own minds….

No smacks...hard hat on

@Stellaris22

I don't understand the desire to have your child fear you and being scared of their parents. That's horrible.

Do you really want your child to not see you as a friend and someone to help them? I'd hate it if my child feared me.

Being scared of a parents reaction to doing something wrong is not the same as living in utter fear of my parents.

Like, for example, I am not scared of the police. I see them as friendly people who support and help me. I always smile and say hello when I walk past them. However I do not break the law as I am shit scared of being arrested and the punishment that would come with that.

When most people throw out “scared of their parents” they don’t mean actual fear of their parent, they mean they fear the punishment the parent will use. There’s a big difference

@Bakingwithmyboys my comment about children with SEN not being responsible for the behaviour of children without SEN was in response to a deleted post where a PP implied exactly that. I won't repeat their exact post as it obviously broke the chat rules but the basic theme of it was that rewarding children with SEN encourages other DC to copy.

I'm not sure.

I think there was worse behaviour at the school I attended than the one I work at.

I think that one reason is that it used to be a lot easier to bunk off. Electronic registers and secure school sites mean that a lot more students end up in lessons they hate that 20 years ago they probably would have skived, and behave poorly. I knew a few people who would leave the house in the morning then let themselves back in once their parents had gone to school. Their parents weren't informed that they weren't there so they just got away with it.

As a collective, I don't think children are fundamentally different to previous generations. My current cohorts in youth groups are not different in temperment to any others that I've known in the past 20 years. The post-pandemic thing I have noticed across different groups is that they seem to find collective instructions harder e.g. make a circle. A "squircle" is a long standing joke about wonky circles, but this is genuine confusion (and not bad behaviour) about understanding how to place themselves in joining the shape up even when given explicit instructions of "Billy, come round to me, Flossie, join up to Billy". They lost or had disrupted 18m of early schooling and group instructions like filing into assembly. They were drilled into being distant at an age when they should have been learning social skills. They are getting the hang of it slowly after 6+m. Another factor is that our most "experienced" children were pretty new when we had to stop meeting so little experience to pass on subtly.

I noticed while I was teaching that parenting expectations were shifting to expecting more contact and parents being more distrustful of teachers. I'm not going to pretend that there was a golden era because a lot used to be brushed under the carpet, but there's no need to launch a bullying inquiry because your precious darling recieved a 3rd detention in 6 months. SLT also indulge this. My line manager had been in the room when one of the detentions was issued as it was during a routine observation, and remembered the tirade that I receieved in response for a standard instruction. But no, we still had to go through the hoops and paperwork to prove that this wasn't bullying.

There is an issue with a sub-culture of "you can't tell me what to do, you're not my mum" and kids expecting adults to bow down with respect to them, while granting none themselves. I always see it as all humans have a base level of respect. Some earn bonus respect points through behaviour and rank, some end up chipping some off. I want my children to do well in life and be functional citizens at the end of childhood. They very rarely get negative feedback from others including teachers, activity leaders but on the occasions that they have, I talk to them about their behaviour and how they can do better next time.

There are people who go through life being beligerent and nasty (some raise children to follow the same path) but "the customer is always" right culture doesn't empower employees to shut them down and say "No. " or "come back when you can talk to me reasonably".

I think there are general well-being issues of children having an imbalance of directed/ free time, space to learn from their own experiences, outdoor play, a regimented, out-of-touch curriculum and poor diets. Screentime is not inherently bad but over-use pushes out other positive experiences and can make negatives such as bullying and inappropriate content more accessible. It's transferred the nature of some of the hazards of free-range childhood, and brought it into the home where there's no escape.

Schools are under-resourced, especially for children who struggle. If there is no appropriate educational place or support for a struggling child, they suffer and so do their peers. Schools are led by government inititatives and political survival and unable to be led by the needs of their staff and children. Children have always struggled but that's more open now, yet we're struggling to actually do anything to deal with that, another thing that's been exacerbated in the past 2 years.

I don't think we have a fundamentally more naughty generation of children though.

@Lemonsandlemonade I completely agree, and for me it's involved a lot of thinking about what I'm saying 'no' to. In this example, if I'm saying 'no' to the telly being on but what I'm really meaning is 'eat this food, now, whether you want to or not' - and believe me, I understand this sentiment! - then I need to be clearer in my communication that that's my expectation. But to be honest i don't really think it's up to me to make anyone eat if they say they aren't hungry, as long as they know (as my two do) that the kitchen will be closed until the next mealtime. But what I was really saying to her was 'we're going to eat dinner and the TV is going off' and that's what happened. I'm not sure I'm explaining it totally well, others on this thread have done a much better job. But basically it's a division of responsibility - I control some things, and my kids have some choice. But the boundaries are clear and fixed.

I like the phrase 'intentional parenting' - I really think about my intentions when interacting with my kids. The same as I do at work, or with my husband or friends - not that I get it right all the time of course! This week I raised my voice at my 3yo in stress. She told me to take a deep breath and calm down and that me shouting scared her, I told her I was sorry, that I am working at learning how to control my emotions better and why the behaviour leading up to me shouting made me feel stressed. It is hard work but I do feel that I'm raising children who are good communicators, good listeners and adept at processing and understanding feelings and I think that this will naturally lead to what we understand as 'good behaviour' in the classroom and in wider society. I hope!!

Speaking as a parent I have trouble disciplining as I feel guilty. I do discipline but I also feel guilty for doing so. For various reasons.

@nopenotplaying

I'm surprised by how many people on here say they have an autistic/sn child. It seems all bad behaviour is labelled now.

Wtf? You think sen child are naughty children? All children misbehave to some degree or another. Children have a Sen/asd diagnosis when they been assessed by a number of qualified experts who determine that they have a condition/neuro diversity that impacts on their ability to function in typical society. In an ideal world adjustments are made to support this diagnosis so the child can thrive. The reason a lot of Sen children struggle is because their environment/caregivers do not or are unable to provide what they need. And also because narrow minded people expect disabled people to fit in with them rather than adjusting their own expectations.

@nopenotplaying

I'm surprised by how many people on here say they have an autistic/sn child. It seems all bad behaviour is labelled now.

No need to be surprised. The statistics are available to everyone that actually wants to learn and inform themselves, rather than just being sneery.

I think it’s lack of discipline, even shouting is “abuse” now, funny that as my kids say there teachers often shout at pupils, but a parent does it and it’s abuse. People don’t discipline their children anymore. Not even suppose to say “no” anymore 🙄