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Ukraine Invasion: Part 20

997 replies

HappyWinter · 11/04/2022 21:30

Thanks to everyone for taking part in the thread.

OP posts:
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Natsku · 12/04/2022 12:27

@Shuuu

Apologies if been reported.

Russia has moved heavy military equipment to the Finnish border.

This is now beyond ridiculous

I don't think that's been confirmed and haven't seen it in the Finnish news yet
Ijsbear · 12/04/2022 12:29

@Shuuu

Apologies if been reported.

Russia has moved heavy military equipment to the Finnish border.

This is now beyond ridiculous

Good lord, if this is true - what the fuck they going to do ?

Invade?

This is probably just sabre rattling but watching Russia invade -two- countries at once would be jawdropping. Why not make it a round three and go for Sweden too?

Ijsbear · 12/04/2022 12:30

Oops crosspost

MagicFox · 12/04/2022 12:34

It's a show of teeth as a result of Finland's move to join NATO

RedToothBrush · 12/04/2022 12:35

@strawberriesarenot

Europe must stop using Russian energy. Couldn't there be a war time rationing of energy across all of us to support Germany from falling into complete recession? Even in the UK, where we don't use Russian oil directly, if rationing were introduced that would leave more free to go to Europe. It might only need to be for the summer.
Saw this criticism yesterday. I don't know if its as straightforward as this but it raises some difficult questions about why they can't do more.

Tomas Peuyo @tomaspeuyo
Since the Bucha massacre was made public, Germany has paid ~$1.5B in gas to Russia

^What would be the impact of keeping nuclear?

^Closing the 3 remaining reactors would increase Russian gas by ~30%
Reopening all the closed reactors would eliminate ALL Russian gas imports^

To understand this, we need to understand German gas: where it comes from & how it's used

About 2/3 of Germany's gas is used for heat.

Changing the heat from gas to other sources is very hard. But reducing the demand a bit is doable. Eg, replacing boilers with heat pumps, taxing it more, and asking ppl for an effort.

But the big one that could be affected is electricity generation, which accounts for about 1/3 of all gas consumption.

In 2021, 55% of Germany's gas came from Russia. During the war, it's been able to get that down to 40%.

40% from 🇷🇺~ 35% to electricity

So a small effort in heat reduction + changing all electricity from gas to other sources would completely eliminate gas imports from Russia.

And it's a LOT of money.
Gas is at ~$1/m3
Germany imports from Russia ~130M m3 of gas a day
That's ~$130M/day

Every week, Germany pays Putin $900M
Nearly $1.5B since the Bucha massacre was made public

How doable is it to replace the electricity from gas to other sources?

Well, in 2021, 50% of Germany's electricity came from renewables, about 12% from gas, and 10% from nuclear.

Look at that purple (nuclear) vs. gray (gas).
Germany used to generate more electricity from nuclear in the 2000s than the current generation of gas + nuclear.

Put in another way, turning the clock back on nuclear energy would eliminate all gas consumption on electricity, which would eliminate all imports of Russian gas.

So why don't they do it?

In fact, it's not even on the table. The only thing that they put on the table was keeping the current ones open! And even then, they won't do it?

Why?

It took me some digging, but I found the document that the German government used to explain it.

Side note: the document comes from the Economy and Environment Ministries, both of which are controlled by... the Green Party.

Green is good, but should it be the only factor in the middle of a geopolitical crisis?

Is that what Germany is optimizing for?

OK so what are the reasons they use:
1. It would require changing the law, and maybe even the constitution.
I'm no expert in German politics, but it sounds to me like this is the type of things governments are in a position to promote Especially in times of crisis?

2. Safety: the reactors would need to pass expedited safety inspections and might not be able to get to state-of-the-art safety.

But the baseline risk of a serious accident is something like 0.001%. What would these inspections do? Reduce it by a further 0.00005%?

Compare that with the reality that Germany is sending hundreds of millions of dollars every day to their blood-thirsty, psychopath neighbor who threatens with nuclear war every time somebody lifts a finger

Yes, of course Germany can take some more time to pass these inspections!

3. Fuel
They fear fuel would run out in Spring 2023 and new fuel would only arrive for Fall 2023.

^I fail to understand the problem with that.
I also fail to understand their lack of imagination. Could a gov really not accelerate this?^
Where there's a will, there's a way

4. Spare parts
They fear suppliers of spare parts have closed down (no details).
They forget:
This is the type of pbm you can throw money at
Ppl who worked in these suppliers are still alive
The German reactors are nothing unique

5. Personnel
Most workers have retired and new ppl haven't been trained, which would take time.

I kid you not, this is their type of concern: “Argh, I would need to get some people out of retirement and train new people. But it takes so long to train them! Better pay Putin.”

6. Economic considerations
What they say:
"With lack of clarity on spare parts and personnel, how can we commit to a reliable delivery or energy? We can’t be 100% confident."

Lack of clarity? Of course! Then get working on improving it.

"Also what about nuclear waste? We’d need to take care of that."

You’ve been operating 1,000 reactor years. Six reactors for five years is an additional 3%. Is that changing nuclear waste management in any way? No.

"And we’d need to expand the operations to 3-5 years because otherwise it doesn’t make economic sense to the companies running them. The government would need to step in and take over some of the risk."

What's the problem?
Maybe you just don't want to keep the reactors open?

7. Energy Replacement
"Until the new nuclear fuel is in place, we would make up for the shortage with more electricity coming from coal and gas."

The main advantage of nuclear is that it eliminates dependency in 2023.

In 2022, maybe you can just...
Hurry up with your inspections and fuel procurement?
Use more coal than gas?

Maybe the Green Party in Germany simply doesn't want to use more nuclear and coal right now?

The entire doc talks about the costs of reopening the reactors. There is no section about the benefits:
Save $
Fight Putin
Help your neighbors

When you only talk about smthg's costs and not about benefits, you don't really want to do it
All of this shows lack of will.

DE could say: this is a national emergency. Instead of sending $900M/week to Putin, we're going to invest a fraction of that in nuclear.

It won't.

The truth: Germany's current energy strategy doesn't cut the dependency on Russian gas

It could if it kept the current nuclear reactors open & reopened those closed

It doesn't want to

Because for the 🇩🇪 gov, killing nuclear is +important than fighting Putin & helping Ukraine

unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/why-germany-wont-keep-its-nuclear?s=r
Why Germany Won’t Keep Its Nuclear Plants Open

Yet 🇩🇪 will still close its nuclear power plants in 2022. Why? I dug up the details. Not pretty.

The only conclusion is that 🇩🇪 would rather kill nuclear than fight Putin & defend Ukraine
1/

Ukraine Invasion: Part 20
RedToothBrush · 12/04/2022 12:40

Max Seddon @maxseddon
Putin’s justifications for the war in Ukraine:

– “the main goal is to help people”
– “we were forced to do it”
– “we couldn’t put up with it any longer”
– “a clash was inevitable”
– “it was just a matter of time”
– “we didn’t have a choice, this was the right thing to do”
She made me do it?

PestorPeston · 12/04/2022 12:48

The Daily Mail are reporting on build up of Russian troops on Finnish border. So nothing confirmed.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 12/04/2022 12:49

This is probably just sabre rattling but watching Russia invade -two- countries at once would be jawdropping. Why not make it a round three and go for Sweden too?

Don't give them ideas. It seems sanity is in very short supply in Russia these days.

Ijsbear · 12/04/2022 12:50

Most I've seen about the results of Austria's visit to Putin from www.nytimes.com/2022/04/11/world/europe/ukraine-russia-war-putin.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DJDm8biPsSGYyMvErQf617apwu3C6SRdlMdaUyX-dzx6pANlYoUxS0o53CmIgAJ299j7OPaV4M_sCHW6Eko3itZ3OlKex7yfrn5Ejea2HsULjZgXwiOApnoZd6JVms3WhYxfrHQLQh2tV91PgxF9stE2d7ESqJufjuDBp9P9SUPFqLukRtBbYvCXyElsWc6rkAbAxUFVrFKXh-6ms349taU8gFaOe9d1VzPZqj3shCTzBgP4yrBJYuRoTLl70MsrTFrByEyMfe1OzsX0EzDdmaZVgkuGbF38BS&smid=tel-nytimes

Austria’s chancellor visited President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia on Monday — the first Western leader to see him in person since the Ukraine invasion — and said he came away feeling not only pessimistic about peace prospects but fearing that Mr. Putin intended to drastically intensify the brutality of the war.

Describing Mr. Putin as dismissive of atrocities in Ukraine, the visiting chancellor, Karl Nehammer, said it was clear that Russian forces were mobilizing for a large-scale assault in eastern Ukraine’s Donbas region, the next phase of a war now in its seventh week.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 12/04/2022 12:53

Germany's policy on nuclear power has always been utterly perverse.

hassletassle · 12/04/2022 12:58

.

Alexandra2001 · 12/04/2022 13:04

Europe must stop using Russian energy. Couldn't there be a war time rationing of energy across all of us to support Germany from falling into complete recession? Even in the UK, where we don't use Russian oil directly, if rationing were introduced that would leave more free to go to Europe. It might only need to be for the summer.

No problem from me but i think the vast majority don't care enough about Ukraine if it means hurting their pockets and especially if we give cut price gas to europe

strawberriesarenot · 12/04/2022 13:07

Thank you RedToothBrush

Having worked for a v short time at Selafield, I wonder if some of the reluctance is processing or even storing the biproduct of nuclear waste which is no joke at all. And we are far from up to scratch in this country as well, but we should nevertheless be offering that facility to Germany. IMO we should be offering much more as well, such as loans, re diverted supplies, and short term manufacturing facilities over here. We are literally fuelling this war, all of us, not just the countries using Russian fuel directly. I don't know why we are not offering them all resources available to help them transition. It would be a longterm green investment, a long term relationship investment, common sense to begin now in the summer months, and whoever is selling/smuggling arms to Russia at the moment, I don't believe they're doing it for money.

Alexandra2001 · 12/04/2022 13:08

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Germany's policy on nuclear power has always been utterly perverse.
Why? The UK has shut most of its Nuclear power stations and no one yet has got round the problem of nuclear waste apart burying it for our children to deal with.

Nuclear is also extremely expensive.

What is perverse is the UK not dealing with our poorly insulated housing, which is the quickest and easiest way to reduce bills.

I am very disappointed that our so called allies in the ME have refused to increase oil/gas production to help us out.

strawberriesarenot · 12/04/2022 13:10

I don't believe they're doing it for money.

I meant to say 'I don't believe they're doing it for love. They're doing it for money.'

strawberriesarenot · 12/04/2022 13:15

No problem from me but i think the vast majority don't care enough about Ukraine if it means hurting their pockets and especially if we give cut price gas to europe

Cut price gas to Europe and a return investment of hosting European manufacturing here might work.

RedToothBrush · 12/04/2022 13:24

Ukraine is issuing new stamps.

ru.interfax.com.ua/news/telecom/823490.html
Ukrainians will be able to buy commemorative 'Russian warship go fuck yourself' stamps.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 20
DGRossetti · 12/04/2022 13:33

@RedToothBrush

Ukraine is issuing new stamps.

ru.interfax.com.ua/news/telecom/823490.html
Ukrainians will be able to buy commemorative 'Russian warship go fuck yourself' stamps.

Why just Ukrainians ? I'd have a few.
ChardonnaysPetDragon · 12/04/2022 13:40

What is perverse is the UK not dealing with our poorly insulated housing, which is the quickest and easiest way to reduce bills.

That is a bit of whataboutery in the context of the thread.

DuncinToffee · 12/04/2022 13:52

Tim Mak @timkmak

In the seventh week of the Russian invasion, UN High Comm'n for Human Rights says 1800+ civilians have been documented as killed, and nearly 2,500 injured.

The real figure, they acknowledge, is "considerably higher" due to difficulty in getting info from areas w/heavy fighting

UN: most civilians have been killed or injured due to explosive weapons like artillery, rockets, missiles and air strikes.

The UN High Commission for Human Rights also noted a report by Ukraine's Prosecutor General, which finds 183 children have been killed as of Monday.

The toll of this war has been devastating for Ukraine's children.

Nearly two-thirds of Ukrainian children have been displaced due to the conflict, per UNICEF.

DuncinToffee · 12/04/2022 13:54

Tim Mak @timkmak

One thing that shows how difficult it will be for this conflict to unwind: the presence of mines.

Zelenskyy said that the Russian military has left tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of them behind as they retreated around Kyiv.

Thousands of mines are being disposed of daily, Zelenskyy said, adding that they were left in homes, streets, fields, around cars, and in doorways.

He added that he thought it was a war crime because these mines are designed to injure or kill civilians.

TargusEasting · 12/04/2022 14:35

www.reuters.com/world/europe/even-with-sanctions-russia-can-afford-feed-its-war-machine-2022-04-12/

This article is sobering and is what I have long believed. The successes of the UA and the astonishing ability to use intelligence in the theatre has given us all a positive background in this early phase. But I am cautious about speculating this could be over in the next few weeks. The Russian army will regroup and consolidate into a long hard grind in the South East. The Achilles Heel is going to be troop morale and secondary levels of leadership in Russia. If reports are true that 150 officers have been isolated/jailed, at some point that is going to have an effect on the wider military elite.

Russia's invasion has driven up the price of the oil, gas and grain it exports, providing it with a substantial windfall to fund its "special military operation" - now entering a new phase as Moscow focuses on the eastern Donbas region after failing to break Ukraine's defence of the capital Kyiv.

As the war grinds on, rising casualties and the need to rotate fresh troops into battle may prove more pressing challenges than the financial cost.

"This type of low-tech war can be financed almost entirely in roubles, which means they can continue pouring troops and heavy artillery into Ukraine at least until there's a more general collapse of the economy," said Jacob Kirkegaard, economist at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington.

Sanctions are expected to shrink the economy by more than 11% this year, the World Bank says, but revenues from energy exports are actually increasing. The Russian finance ministry said on April 5 that Moscow expects to earn $9.6 billion in additional revenue from energy sales in April alone thanks to high oil prices, which remain around $100 a barrel.

Connolly said ordinary Russians would feel the impact but the state could comfortably pay for the war effort, even if its economy is plunged into recession. If necessary it could commandeer resources like fuel from state-owned companies.

The more pressing question, he said, was the level of casualties and the difficulty of sustaining a war involving up to 150,000 troops at a time.

Russia has so far acknowledged only 1,351 troops killed and 3,825 wounded, although Ukraine and Western governments believe the toll is many times higher. Its army and airborne troops have a combined strength of about 325,000.

"If you’ve got 150,000 committed to Ukraine, you’ve got half of your effective army currently in combat operations, many of which have experienced significant losses," Connolly said.

"So they’re going to need to replace, they’re going to need to rotate them. They're using their entire army, basically - or they will be if this goes on for very much longer."

RedToothBrush · 12/04/2022 14:40

ukdefencejournal.org.uk/ukrainian-troops-arriving-in-uk-for-british-weapons-training/
Ukrainian troops arriving in UK for British weapons training

Ukrainian troops will arrive in Britain soon for training with the British military, the UK Government has confirmed.

littledrummergirl · 12/04/2022 14:46

My dad was a peacekeeper in Bosnia. It's not as simple as protecting the Ukrainians.

Imagine being a peacekeeper in Mariupol, having the Ukrainian fighters with you but your orders are to hand them over to the Russians to keep the peace.

You know what is likely to happen to them if you hand them over, but to not do this will have a ripple effect that could cause more harm to others.
Do you follow orders, object to orders but carry them out anyway knowing you don't have all of the information, or do you ignore your orders?
How do you live with yourself afterwards? We have many ex servicemen living on the streets, unable to cope in civilian life. The horrors they have seen and some of things they did will never leave them. We need to think long and hard about how, why and what we expect from any peacekeeping force we send.
I understand why we are waiting.
Unfortunately the rules of peacekeeping have to work both ways.

littledrummergirl · 12/04/2022 14:47

RTB- this is a good thing.

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