Ukraine Invasion: Part 20

[HappyWinter]

Thanks to everyone for taking part in the thread.

what are the consequences of defining the situation in Ukriane as genocide
I think jts being hyped up as it will be a watershed moment as the world will do something. But Biden (and other countries) have called the Xinjiang genocide, a genocide in the past and not much has really changed, so I'm doubtful of the importance of leaders calling it a genocide leading to significant change.
I think its important for leaders to name it what it is, I just personally doubt it will change the current actions of those countries.

I agree with @Saltedeggplant

In theory the UN would be obliged to intervene to try to stop it. In practice , because of the Russian veto on the Security Council, nothing would happen (and If it were to get that far, China would veto any action about the Uyghurs )

@drinkingwineoutofamug

Re your father after clearing up in Bosnia:

If I hadn't seen these photos and seen the effect it had on my dad on his return 10 months later, you wouldn't believe it.

Has he been able to have an ok life since?

It was in that war I first heard of a baby being raped having never before had any conception that that would be humanly possible.

I'm also not sure we're at the point where Russian actions exceed those of the Nazis. The Holocaust, for one?

Depraved? Yes. Horrific? Yes. Will be looked back on, as with Nazi Germany, as an extremely dark period in history? Absolutely. But 6 million people died in horrific ways as a result of the Holocaust alone and I think it's important to acknowledge that, rather than jumping immediately to that kind of dramatic rhetoric, as otherwise it risks cheapening the real meaning of "surpassing" Nazi Germany. I'm not saying what's happening now isn't appalling, it sickens me, and this war may yet get to that stage, but I think it's dangerous to jump the gun too quickly and I sincerely hope what we're seeing doesn't end up being a repeat.

Nazi Germany industrialised genocidal mass murder.
As a war crime it stands alone.

@Igotjelly

What is going on in Ukraine is horrendous but I have to disagree that it exceeds the actions of the Nazis, at this stage.

Does it really matter? one death isn't "better" than 100k.

Russia is carrying out a war against Ukraine that is at least on par with some of the worst atrocities that took place in WW2 (outside of the holocaust)

We also do not yet know what has happened to the '000s deported but Russia's record on its captured enemies is terrible.

@Alexandra2001 actually yes, I think it does matter, hugely. 6 MILLION people. Of course it matters. I agree with @KonTikki and I think it matters for that reason, too.

Where do you go from here if you talk about this as having surpassed Nazi Germany already? What happens if or when it actually does surpass Nazi Germany? People will be "used" to the idea, it won't have the same impact. Don't "cheapen" what it means to surpass the Nazi regime. I think it probably matters to the families of those who were victims of the Nazi regime, too.

Agree with @Alexandra2001

The people dying from chemical weapons/warfare are suffering from genocide and their experience of that as a human being isn’t minimised because it’s not ‘mass’.

Russia has the full intention of killing as many Ukrainians as they can, by whatever means and would have killed many more if there weren’t such fierce resistance. So although it hasn’t exceeded the Holocaust it is comparable.

Please note, Zelensky does not want to meet the German Prime Minister
Frank-Walter Steinmeier but he is ok with meeting Chancellor Olaf Scholz.

He's not angry with Germany, he's just not happy with Steinmeier because of Steinmeier's past with Russia.

@ScrollingLeaves
It took its time. He was withdrawn on return and whiskey in take was higher. I was 17 at the time and remember those photographs like it was yesterday.
I think he needed to show someone if you understand what I mean.
Now he's retired , married my step mum and lives life to the full.

@Ijsbear

Please note, Zelensky does not want to meet the German Prime Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier but he is ok with meeting Chancellor Olaf Scholz.

He's not angry with Germany, he's just not happy with Steinmeier because of Steinmeier's past with Russia.

Being pedantic, Steinmeier is not the "prime minister" of Germany, he is the President

The Chancellor (Scholz) is more the equivalent of the role of Prime Minister; the President is the "head of state" and more ceremonial in role, albeit with certain constitutional responsibilities (sort of like the queen, albeit elected into the role).

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

No one is suggesting he is the bad guy. He can however benefit from more clarity in his statements.

No, still can't follow you there unless the "clarity" is for Biden to correctly call Putin a mass murdering gangster who has dragged Russia back into the dark ages and who will happily see every one of his compatriots dead as long his his massive small-penis ego is satisfied.

That would be the clarity I'd applaud.

"Hard man" my arse. He's a pathetic cowardly bully.

Swedish media is reporting that the Swedish PM and Finnish PM meet today to discuss NATO membership. However the Swedish PM has already taken the decision to join. The application is already prepared and will formally submitted at the next NATO summit, which is in June.

www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/Wj5g6g/natomote-mellan-sanna-marin-och-magdalena-andersson

(link to news of Sweden's U-turn on NATO membership)

You know excels what I mean by clarity, and that hot having to have officials clarify or "walk back" his statements.

This is something that is not necessarily connected to his statements about Putin, but has been the case on the 27/03.

Again, you seem reluctant to separate the issues. Biden can call Putin whatever he sees fit, but there should be no need to further clarifications on what exactly he said and what he meant.

@Saltedeggplant

what are the consequences of defining the situation in Ukriane as genocide I think jts being hyped up as it will be a watershed moment as the world will do something. But Biden (and other countries) have called the Xinjiang genocide, a genocide in the past and not much has really changed, so I'm doubtful of the importance of leaders calling it a genocide leading to significant change. I think its important for leaders to name it what it is, I just personally doubt it will change the current actions of those countries.

It ups internal pressure within countries to do more to help Ukraine.

I don't believe this involves going into Ukraine, but it certainly ups the anti on sanctions and arms. It also is a reflection of public opinion.

It will be important going forward for domestic politics if there is hardship.

I don't think its a watershed moment personally. I think it is significant, because of how it shapes direction of politics and makes it harder for the west to reverse / backdown.

Agree with genocide and pleased Biden is speaking plainly. Why else would Russia take mobile crematoriums to Ukraine. We (NATO) have played the careful game, it hasn’t exactly panned out well for Ukraine has it.

Oops neither do I, I just can't type! meant to say it's being hyped up as if it will be. Not it will be.

The Kyiv Independent @KyivIndependent
Macron refuses to call Russian atrocities 'genocide.'

French President Emmanuel Macron said: “I would be careful with such terms today because these two peoples (Russians and Ukrainians) are brothers.”

Can we call it Fratricide then Mr Macron?

I know you've got an election on and all that and you are trying for some reason to keep Putin sweet, but really?

fracticide*

Fall of Mariupol will almost certainly happen today.

BBC is pushing the point heavily.

And this is being reported on Sky

Sky News @SkyNews
'I'll be surprised if Mariupol isn't in Russian hands by this time tomorrow'.

Defence and security analyst, Professor Michael Clarke, says Mariupol could fall within a "matter of hours".

Maria Zolkina @Mariia_Zolkina
Russian occupiers are preparing for parade in #Mariupol on May, 9th, (Victory Day in Russia), advisor to Mariupol mayor says. Russians really need “success” up to that day, but how inadequate should they be even to plan parade in 90% destroyed city?

An official announcement in 2020 showed total Russian military debt at $39.5 billion in relation to estimated total defense spending of nearly $44 billion

Wow :o

As for Mariupol, I wonder how even the Russians can claim that the Ukrainians destroyed their own city quite so comprehensively.

What world wars look like

www.theregister.com/2022/04/13/huawei_may_quit_russia
...

US authorities have warned Chinese companies not to help Russia evade sanctions and reminded the world that it can also impose "secondary sanctions" on Chinese companies that flout the sanctions imposed on Russia.

Huawei knows how much US sanctions can hurt: they've already damaged its smartphone business and made its server business so difficult it had to be offloaded.

...