Cultural Appropriation being taken too far

[KitBumbleB]

DD is early secondary age and is exploring her hobbies and interests like other kids her age. One of her friends has discovered that she loves cooking and especially likes making Chinese food.
Last night DD was furiously typing on her phone and when I asked what was up she said one of her friends was having a go at the other for "cultural appropriation" because apparently cooking food of another culture or country is wrong.
The girl who likes cooking was incredibly upset and terrified of anyone else finding out as apparently this is the worst crime a tween can commit.

DD also tells me that according to TikTok, learning a language is also appropriation, especially Japanese as it is seen as fetishism

I know this is not AIBU, but am I the only one who thinks this is nonsense and is turning harmful, its like a mindless pile up.

DD and I are not white btw

OP- my son is in Y11 and doing GCSE Food Tech. One of the questions for this coursework was to demonstrate his knowledge of Italian cuisine and culinary tradition so he's spent the last few months practicing how to make ravioli, focaccia etc. The thousands of teenagers who have completed this task aren't culturally appropriating, they are learning about another culture which can only be a good thing.

And Chinese food! For heaven's sake, look at any Mandarin textbook and some of the first phrases are things like,
"What are you doing tomorrow?"
"I am going to my friend's house to eat Chinese food. Chinese food tastes very good!"
And so on and so on.
It appears to be a great source of pride that the rest of the world wants to cook and eat Chinese food!

Just to be clear, I don't agree with DDs friend.

I said to DD that as an Egyptian woman who has never belly danced in her life, I looked on FB and found a community center that offers belly dancing classes. I had a look at their FB class pictures and all the women appeared to be white, all different ages, shapes, sizes etc
I asked DD if she felt all those women owed us an apology for doing "our dance" or if she felt they were all disrespecting us. She agreed with me that its nonsense.

However I am aware that I am only one woman and other people may feel differently

I think I am more worried about the potential bullying and policing of others thoughts than the CA aspect

[quote nauticant]How can learning another language be cultural appropriation?

This was mentioned in relation to Japanese and there's some validity there where for some the interest isn't in relation to the language itself but in relation to obsessions around Manga, Anime, and other things I better not write in case people are tempted to google. There can be a fetishistic aspect for such an origin of the interest. For example, see this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanophilia#21st_century[/quote]
It’s not that straightforward. The Japanese state has aggressively pursued a policy of exporting Japanese culture and encouraging this stuff to leverage ‘soft power’ geopolitically. So let’s not pretend it’s a case of poor Japan being culturally appropriated.

I suspect South Korea is very happy about the soft power they can leverage from encouraging the international popularity of korean culture too.

All much more complex than ‘dreadful western cultural appropriation’

I think I am more worried about the potential bullying and policing of others thoughts

Teenagers have always done this to each other.

I wonder what people think about K Pop? I would ask DD but she would probably explode

Explode with what, op? Excitement, fury?
KPop is a huge global phenomenon and its popularity has made a lot of money for Korea.
Does your daughter really think only Koreans can like KPop? Should BTS’s overseas concerts be boycotted by non-Koreans?
Continuing that theme, should Kdramas only be watched by Koreans?

@KitBumbleB

Just to be clear, I don't agree with DDs friend.

I said to DD that as an Egyptian woman who has never belly danced in her life, I looked on FB and found a community center that offers belly dancing classes. I had a look at their FB class pictures and all the women appeared to be white, all different ages, shapes, sizes etc
I asked DD if she felt all those women owed us an apology for doing "our dance" or if she felt they were all disrespecting us. She agreed with me that its nonsense.

However I am aware that I am only one woman and other people may feel differently

I think I am more worried about the potential bullying and policing of others thoughts than the CA aspect

You make a good point. And interestingly the most visible user of belly dancing in popular culture are not white women but singers and dancers of all ethnicities and nationalities (Shakira being the more attributed but also Beyonce and the like)

But you are right about the bullying and policing of people's thoughts and CA is just a tool to do that, another one will be along soon

It only takes some exploration of 'where things come from' to identify that it is a nonsense concept, despite some things or activities or habits having meaning to someone it doesnt mean those things cant be utilised for other means by someone else. And they have been for eons.

In the 70’s and 80’s many in the UK were derided and mocked for narrow tastes and refusal to eat anything deemed ‘foreign’. And there’s still that feeling when you go to certain tourist areas abroad and see rows of ‘Full English Breakfast’ type restaurants.

Are we now supposed to retreat back to a place where a Vesta Curry from Bejams is as daring as the British palate can get? (Although I guess that would be appropriation by Vesta/Bejam too).

Cultural appropriation exists and is a problem, but it is mostly a misused term.

For example, a French fashion designer reproduced some traditional Mexican designs as if she had thought them up.

@Coyoacan

Cultural appropriation exists and is a problem, but it is mostly a misused term.

For example, a French fashion designer reproduced some traditional Mexican designs as if she had thought them up.

Who was that?

Oh come on, surely your views have changed since you were a teenager? I’m not terribly concerned that they’ll still be avoiding Chinese takeaways when they’re 30

Te difference is, these kids are the first to grow up with things like tiktok. It’s constant input on how they must think, and if they don’t they are in some way being offensive or phobic of whatever for things like cooking Chinese food. Its compared to things like racism, these kids believe that, are scared to be on the wrong side and then they’re thankful to have been ‘educated’.

And they never escape it and have chance to form their own thoughts because they’re on these apps and in touch with the whole world all day, every day. It’s really difficult to reverse or unpick your thinking as an adult when you’ve been bombarded by it every waking hour as a child/teen. If I had very ‘woke’ teens I would be very scared for them. Fortunately I don’t, but I’m still scared for them because if they actually speak their true feelings, using common sense and knowledge, they’re shouted down.

Oh FFS. Pretending you are from the hood when you grew up in middle class suburbia and can go back to it when you want is cultural appropriation. Appreciating other cultures in terms of food, language, culture is just interest. And we should be interested in other people, life is pretty shitty if we only are interested in our own selves. Poor girl, I hope she keeps cooking as she wants to. And that the others grow up.

It's just the age for girls to be very unkind to each other and take turns to exclude from the friendship group. Usually it's the least secure person who takes the lead role in circulating negative comments and stirring stuff up. If it wasn't this trumped up 'reason' it would be something else. It can cause absolute misery and the person being picked on at the time needs reassure, support and activities outside the circle. And to celebrate what a fantastic skill they have!

Mince pies, used to be made with mince meat in them. Improved by removing the meat but still called mince pies?

Mince pies with real mince in them are lovely. Plenty of recipes online - if you eat meat, try them next Christmas.

I think this is teens and not reality, and based on a misunderstanding of what cultural appropriation is. It's not 'doing or having anything related a culture that has been less privileged than yours', I'm on very woke social media and have never seen any suggestion that making food from other cultures is appropriation!

@Antarcticant

Mince pies, used to be made with mince meat in them. Improved by removing the meat but still called mince pies?

Mince pies with real mince in them are lovely. Plenty of recipes online - if you eat meat, try them next Christmas.

I wouldnt mind trying them to be honest.

I hope the friend eats a lot of turnips.

Appropriation means taking something from someone else and treating it as if it is your own, to use how you see fit. This is completely different from enjoying the food and music etc from other cultures, which is a source of great pleasure to most people I would think.

Just imagine if it was taken to the extremes that some people want it to be. All counties sealed in their own little bubble, not learning about anyone else. Just the opposite of the global and diverse world that most of us want. Can you imagine London, if you could not wear, eat, speak of watch the culture of any other nation.

I think, with reference to the learning languages thing, there is a vein of racism veneered with anti intellectual snobbery about foreign languages that sometimes sneaks in via social media.

I saw a lovely post on (stupid people of) Reddit along the lines of someone in the US ranting about the learning of Spanish by white folk being cultural appropriation of Hispanic peoples, and managing not to realise that Spanish was, infact a European language that had been imposed on the original inhabitants.

@Echobelly

I think this is teens and not reality, and based on a misunderstanding of what cultural appropriation is. It's not 'doing or having anything related a culture that has been less privileged than yours', I'm on very woke social media and have never seen any suggestion that making food from other cultures is appropriation!

Are we somehow imagining that China is not a global superpower?

Yes. There’s lots of racist crap about china out there in the world (and there are geopolitical reasons for this). But I don’t think that we should be pretending that cooking Chinese food could ever be like white Americans dressing up as native Americans.

@Theworkhouse

Appropriation means taking something from someone else and treating it as if it is your own, to use how you see fit. This is completely different from enjoying the food and music etc from other cultures, which is a source of great pleasure to most people I would think.

Just imagine if it was taken to the extremes that some people want it to be. All counties sealed in their own little bubble, not learning about anyone else. Just the opposite of the global and diverse world that most of us want. Can you imagine London, if you could not wear, eat, speak of watch the culture of any other nation.

We could have kept the Romans out if we were applying that at the time!

@Belkell

I think, with reference to the learning languages thing, there is a vein of racism veneered with anti intellectual snobbery about foreign languages that sometimes sneaks in via social media.

I saw a lovely post on (stupid people of) Reddit along the lines of someone in the US ranting about the learning of Spanish by white folk being cultural appropriation of Hispanic peoples, and managing not to realise that Spanish was, infact a European language that had been imposed on the original inhabitants.

That is a glorious example.

If only things were as simple as some people want to pretend they are.

The world has gone mad.

@Echobelly

I think this is teens and not reality, and based on a misunderstanding of what cultural appropriation is. It's not 'doing or having anything related a culture that has been less privileged than yours', I'm on very woke social media and have never seen any suggestion that making food from other cultures is appropriation!

I have seen it, but it was pretty clearly right wing trolling. It is possible that it would not be identified as a troll post by a twelve year old though.

Appreciation is not appropriation.