Cultural Appropriation being taken too far

[KitBumbleB]

DD is early secondary age and is exploring her hobbies and interests like other kids her age. One of her friends has discovered that she loves cooking and especially likes making Chinese food.
Last night DD was furiously typing on her phone and when I asked what was up she said one of her friends was having a go at the other for "cultural appropriation" because apparently cooking food of another culture or country is wrong.
The girl who likes cooking was incredibly upset and terrified of anyone else finding out as apparently this is the worst crime a tween can commit.

DD also tells me that according to TikTok, learning a language is also appropriation, especially Japanese as it is seen as fetishism

I know this is not AIBU, but am I the only one who thinks this is nonsense and is turning harmful, its like a mindless pile up.

DD and I are not white btw

I can't remember who mentioned 'horseshoe politics' where the hard Left and Right finally almost join up with their dreadful ideas, but they are perfectly correct.

Haha, that was me earlier!

@TheElementsSong

I can't remember who mentioned 'horseshoe politics' where the hard Left and Right finally almost join up with their dreadful ideas, but they are perfectly correct.

Haha, that was me earlier!

Yay! I knew you were sensible, ha ha :)

I don’t think Janet is saying there are hard and fast rules from what I’m reading. She’s not hectoring anyone or agreeing with the kind of bullies hiding behind social justice that do. Just that there may be some nuance to this.

Why is it that all debates on this site end up with people distorting and exaggerating the views of posters that don’t agree with them? Let’s be honest, this isn’t a place where you can actually discuss ideas. You’re either on one ‘side’ or the other and that’s that.

@TrefoilTrefoil

I don’t think Janet is saying there are hard and fast rules from what I’m reading. She’s not hectoring anyone or agreeing with the kind of bullies hiding behind social justice that do. Just that there may be some nuance to this.

Why is it that all debates on this site end up with people distorting and exaggerating the views of posters that don’t agree with them? Let’s be honest, this isn’t a place where you can actually discuss ideas. You’re either on one ‘side’ or the other and that’s that.

I disagree. If there are no actual rules or guidelines, how can those not 'in the know' avoid breaking said invisible rules? Please will one of you just tell us what the rules are and then we can have a proper debate?

I'm more than happy to debate in a mature manner once the subject has been properly explained. As it stands, I have no idea what the debate is even about? Is it about who's the most oppressed? That appears to be subjective in many cases. Is it about who's the most offended? That is equally subjective.

As a woman of mixed heritage myself, I am up for a robust debate with anyone who wants to discuss cultural appropriation sensibly, but giving vague scenarios about things which may never happen and being deliberately(?) vague will never lead to any reasoned debate will it? If there are no hard and fast rules, who is making the rules, who's enforcing them and who is disseminating the information about them to the wider public?

I don’t think Janet is saying there are hard and fast rules from what I’m reading. She’s not hectoring anyone or agreeing with the kind of bullies hiding behind social justice that do. Just that there may be some nuance to this
Thanks, and yes this
Definitely don't agree with what the bullies in OP are saying and what they're doing, but as you say it's not straightforward.

Why is it that all debates on this site end up with people distorting and exaggerating the views of posters that don’t agree with them? Let’s be honest, this isn’t a place where you can actually discuss ideas
So true!

Please will one of you just tell us what the rules are and then we can have a proper debate?
People have been trying to explain, and to debate.
Nobody's said anything about '' rules ''

@BreadGenius - you’re talking about this as though there is some sort of legal or regulatory framework with an enforcing body. There isn’t. Nobody on this thread has said there are rules. What there is is an idea or a philosophy or a sensibility that says it is culturally insensitive to use other people’s culture in certain ways. There are going to be some people who reject this idea completely. There are going to be others who interpret it in a very extreme manner. People are going to disagree on the detail. It’s like concepts in any other school of thought, such as feminism.

You can’t look at a given scenario, put it through the machine and get a binary yes/no to cultural appropriation.

Also, I’ll be the first to admit I’m not hugely well-versed in the subject. I’m just saying I don’t think it’s as simple as dismissing it all out of hand as a load of old codswallop.

Also, I’ll be the first to admit I’m not hugely well-versed in the subject. I’m just saying I don’t think it’s as simple as dismissing it all out of hand as a load of old codswallop
Same

@GoodJanetBadJanet

So what about if a British person buys a cookery book produced by a Chinese chef, featuring traditional Chinese recipes, they then go to the local Chinese supermarket and buy the ingredients and cook one of the recipes. Is that OK? Of course it is, are people really still not getting the difference between appreciation and appropriation?! There's been some great explanations on the thread..

So the girls in the OP were wrong then. That's clear but obviously they won't agree. It seems a minefield.

My family is very multicultural and has been for several generations. I don't think I notice it with food or clothing, the opposite really as everyone seems to love sharing food (sort of playing one up manship that one cuisine is better) and I've been dressed up in other national dress several times not at my request by the way.

I think I feel more uncomfortable with religious references. People wearing rosary beads like a necklace is an example. Lately I seem to hear a reference to "a Hail Mary" meaning a sort of last chance or last hope. A Hail Mary is a prayer so that grates with me, I'm not offended I just feel it is inappropriate. I'm always struck by the number of women when asked about pregnancy refer to "it would be an Immaculate Conception." They presumably mean a Miraculous Conception. They strike me as I'm Catholic, other denominations and religions probably notice similar things that would never occur to me like the meaning of Maori tattooes as I know nothing of their meaning.

I suppose we can all cause offence without even realising it and certainly not meaning it. Maybe the intent is what matters.

Btw, @BreadGenius - really not trying to be arsey or superior in my response there. The fact you’ve mentioned being frustrated that nobody can explain the rules has made me think of this thread in a different way. I have approached this as taking for granted that there can’t be rules, whereas this is precisely its shortcomings for others.

I suppose we can all cause offence without even realising it and certainly not meaning it. Maybe the intent is what matters

Yes, I completely agree with this.
Nobody knows everything, and everyone can cause offence out of ignorance/lack of education/ naivety, etc just not realising.
Nothing wrong with that I don't think, but intent matters as in once you do learn that it is offensive and the history behind certain things and still dismiss it as a load of shit or whatever, then that's more problematic

[quote TrefoilTrefoil]@BreadGenius - you’re talking about this as though there is some sort of legal or regulatory framework with an enforcing body. There isn’t. Nobody on this thread has said there are rules. What there is is an idea or a philosophy or a sensibility that says it is culturally insensitive to use other people’s culture in certain ways. There are going to be some people who reject this idea completely. There are going to be others who interpret it in a very extreme manner. People are going to disagree on the detail. It’s like concepts in any other school of thought, such as feminism.

You can’t look at a given scenario, put it through the machine and get a binary yes/no to cultural appropriation.

Also, I’ll be the first to admit I’m not hugely well-versed in the subject. I’m just saying I don’t think it’s as simple as dismissing it all out of hand as a load of old codswallop.[/quote]
Thank you for confirming what I thought i.e. that there is no consensus of opinion on what is offensive and what is not, and that there is no guidance or framework legally sanctioned or otherwise.

So given that, by your own admission, there is no actual right or wrong, someone who rejects the idea that s/he cannot play music from an Italian was it (?) composer in an orchestra and be paid for doing so, are equally at liberty to reject your opinion, if they consider it to be asinine?

Racism is wrong, full stop. I have been on the receiving end of it on public transport and in the street, because I am light skinned (although not English) and my partner is not. However, if someone wants to sell a product from my country of origin in their shop I am not in the least offended and would be incensed if someone piped up on my behalf to tell others that I was offended.

Would you agree with that or would you tell me that I must be offended if you say I am? Surely you can see the point I'm making? The idea you are promulgating is divisive and racist in my opinion. I want a blended society, not a fragmented one.

So we're left with the general impression that whilst there can't be rules as such, ultimately it's about an unquantifiable sense of wrongness in undefinable situations whereby some activities are subtly proscribed if carried out by some people but not others.

But it's definitely on the basis of bloodlines.

@GoodJanetBadJanet

I suppose we can all cause offence without even realising it and certainly not meaning it. Maybe the intent is what matters

Yes, I completely agree with this.
Nobody knows everything, and everyone can cause offence out of ignorance/lack of education/ naivety, etc just not realising.
Nothing wrong with that I don't think, but intent matters as in once you do learn that it is offensive and the history behind certain things and still dismiss it as a load of shit or whatever, then that's more problematic

So how do you go about establishing someone's intent? Unless they are a diehard EDL member, it would be very difficult indeed. Cooking an Italian meal and charging for it would not offend me in the least if the person concerned were not Italian, but attacking someone because of the colour of their skin is, rightly, a criminal offence. I don't disagree that we should all be kinder to each other, but highlighting our differences and insisting on cultural purity spirals is absolutely not the way to achieve this surely? Basically, I am pro amalgamation and anti division.

@TheElementsSong

So we're left with the general impression that whilst there can't be rules as such, ultimately it's about an unquantifiable sense of wrongness in undefinable situations whereby some activities are subtly proscribed if carried out by some people but not others.

But it's definitely on the basis of bloodlines.

That's exactly how I see it! It's massively subjective and will lead to the very opposite of what its proponents claim to want.

So given that, by your own admission, there is no actual right or wrong,

It’s not my ‘admission’. That makes it sound like I’m backing down from a position. I’ve never maintained the position that there are or should be rules.

someone who rejects the idea that s/he cannot play music from an Italian was it (?) composer in an orchestra and be paid for doing so, are equally at liberty to reject your opinion, if they consider it to be asinine?

Again, this isn’t at all reflective of my opinion in the first place! And yes, people are allowed to have different perspectives. And to reject my opinion or anyone else’s. I’ve not said otherwise.

Would you agree with that or would you tell me that I must be offended if you say I am?

No, I don’t think anyone must be offended by anything. I don’t know where you’ve got from my posts that I think people must or do all think in a particular way.

What I do think is that there are people who claim to be offended by what is described as cultural appropriation. I’m quite sympathetic to that view, although I’m certainly not the arbiter of what it is. I do think there are extremists on this (and, yet, the professionally offended) who are making society more divided.

I’m not promulgating any view, btw, other than that I think this is a complex topic.

Thank you for replying @TrefoilTrefoil

You say that it's a complex topic, and I wonder if we can examine that a little more? Racism is undoubtedly evil and is also against the law. I think we'd both agree on this point? So called cultural appropriation, on the other hand is subjective and not against any laws that I'm aware of, although perhaps some of the more egregious cases where the treasures of other countries have been looted is, or should be illegal?

What I think we're discussing on this thread, however, is the right of anyone to style their hair in a particular way, wear various clothes or cook dishes that may or may not be from their own culture? This leads to a huge morass of difficulty surely? How far back to do we trace our racial purity (or whatever people think it is?) to ensure that we are not appropriating anything? If we are religious, we may decide that it's wrong to eat apples (or wear fig leaves) if we don't believe in this biblical story.

It's an endless spiral that ultimately leads nowhere. Questions will always remain as to who 'owns' any manner of things and who is 'allowed' to participate/eat/cook/play/listen to/wear etc said things.

There is literally no end to the arguments that humanity can have until the end of time/the world/whatever, on this subject, but where will it get us, all this arguing? Who ultimately wins? Will someone end up sitting on a huge heap of things that they 'own' and that no-one else is allowed to access? Will things be divided along racial lines? How can it possibly end fairly and amicably?

(In case you are wondering, yes it's satire).

Ah, little OJ. Always, the voice of reason 🤣

It does raise another question for me though. I’ve got friends who run a village shop/ PO. They’re white British. Are they guilty of cultural appropriation because they definitely sell rice, both white and brown? They also sell Turkish Delight I think. As I said, it’s an endless spiral isn’t it? Where will it stop? Can it actually stop once we step into this alternative universe where everyone is a ‘blamer’ or ‘blamee’? I don’t agree to live in a world like that. I’d go crazy within a couple of hours 😖 So, it’s a firm ‘No thanks’ from me!

the next generation is fascist then.

I mean I think we already got an idea from the transgender ideology but it stands to reason it will not end there.

manufactured outrage and victim hood are all in fashion, hard to unpick if its just because it sells, nothing like a bit of outrage to get the online clicks, or out of a lack of being hard done by/trying to appear special, everyone is a hard done by minority these days.

as a working class/poor person I can definitely say the lower down the socioeconomic scale you are the less affected by these silly trends and the more grounded in reality, so maybe it just about wanting to feel special either as a minority or as a white knight for one, when you live a comfy middle class or above existence with nothing really going on in your life to complain about.

I just want to add a comment about japan in terms of "cultural appropriation.
ramen comes from china (la-mian).
their written language consists of several separate alphabets, one is japanese, one is chinese and one was invented for foreign words.
manga started out as political satire inspired by European satirical comics.
The vast majority of japanese people are of korean origin, the indigenous japanese are the Ainu and theres sod all of them left and their culture is completely different they are most closely related to
aboriginal australians.
Japanese contains many many foreign words some so changed you may not even recognize them as foreign words school backpacks for example are randoseru which is taken from the dutch word for backpack.

so if you want to talk cultural appropriation to your child, japan is a wonderful example of a country thats been doing it for centuries even if they did close themselves off from the world for a long time.

should also remind her about the slik road, the massive middle east to europe trading route that gave china access to things like onions and sesame oil.

Thank fuck this wankery wasn't around when I was a teenager. All we had to worry about was the occasional zit and wolf whistling builder!