Why is the USA banning abortion?

[MindPalace]

It is absolutely horrifying that 21-26 US states are actively considering outlawing abortion. There are no exemptions for rape or incest in many of the proposals.

I see lots of news articles on this eg this one

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/08/oklahomas-move-to-ban-abortions-is-a-prelude-of-america-without-roe-v-wade

But I can’t find one setting out the reasons why. Why on earth would they want to set back hard-won women’s rights?

And Poland as well. It’s quite scary.

Sorry if there is another recent thread on this btw.

@Snippysocks

Freedom of speech and respect for people is important. Perhaps everyone, including me, needs to remember this. Hence will Mumsnet posters allow me to say that I wouldn't choose to kill a spider or anything else with a heartbeat?. Also, it's very enlightening to watch a few videos to see what actually happens in an abortion and to remember that the unborn can feel pain and react to a stimulus from very early on.

Pro-choice is not pro-abortion, so if you don't want an abortion no one is campaigning for you to be forced to have one, are they? It's about choice. And a lot of the time with late abortions the woman wants to have a healthy happy baby but chooses to end the life as there would be a lot more suffering in this world. Do videos exist of someone caring for a sick infant for months or years and watching he/she die painfully? They'd be much longer than anti-abortion videos and much more traumatising I'll bet.

@Hospedia

Massively, the US is full of the nut job Christians (not saying all Christians are nuts). To use god is ridiculous as god is definitely not pro life.

They always seem to overlook that abortion is in the Bible, including a method on how to carry it out and specific mention of it not being a sin.

They do and then when it's pointed out, it's always 'taken out of context' or 'okay because it's gods choice'. The same when it comes for pointing out that in the bible god killed babies when the first born sons of Egypt were killed or drowned the world in a flood. It's a strange way for god to be pro life 🤔

Freedom of speech and respect for people is important. Perhaps everyone, including me, needs to remember this. Hence will Mumsnet posters allow me to say that I wouldn't choose to kill a spider or anything else with a heartbeat?

Freedom of speech does not mean giving a platform to misinformation. Say what you like but ensure that it is factually correct.

So you get pregnant and you choose not to have an abortion. Good for you. You have the right to choose to continue your pregnancy, a right enshrined in law, and if any fucker tries to pressure you to end that pregnancy then I will come out swinging on your side to help protect your right to that choice.

And here's Sue who is also pregnant but she doesn't want to be and so chopses to have an abortion. This is also fine and good for her too, she knows she doesn't want to have a baby and her right to not continue her pregnancy is also enshrined in law. If anyone tries to take away her right to choose this then I'll come out swinging on her side too.

See how being pro-choice protects the rights of all women rather than just some women?

PS: I hope you're vegetarian as chickens, cows, pigs, fish, etc all have heartbeats.

Also, it's very enlightening to watch a few videos to see what actually happens in an abortion and to remember that the unborn can feel pain and react to a stimulus from very early on

1. Most abortions take place prior to 13wks (around 95% of them) and are induced using medication.

1. The ability to feel pain and respond to painful stimulation does not occur until much later in pregnancy and at a stage where, if someone was having an abortion, then it would most likely be for medical reasons rather than social ones (only 1% of abortions take place after 20wks and 0.1% post-24wks, approx 260 a year on average). All of these abortions at this stage begin with an injection to stop the heart, I also think its worth remembering that in this very small number of cases there will be a devastated family at the centre of that decision and perhaps you should remember that before imploring people to go and watch videos of it

Also, it's very enlightening to watch a few videos to see what actually happens in an abortion and to remember that the unborn can feel pain and react to a stimulus from very early on.

Also enlightening to see what happens to unwanted babies who grow up in the care system, or having been born to families who are pushed further in to poverty with one more mouth to feed.

Or to look at the very short, painful life of a profoundly disabled child.

You can have a noble belief about heartbeats if you wish, but others also have a noble belief that what also matters is the whole life beyond birth and how imposing lifelong suffering on a child far outweighs any unsubstantiated supposition of what a foetus may or may not experience.

Those in favour of abortion are seemingly unable to comprehend that there is a sizable amount of people who are against it.

If you are ever forced to have an abortion against your will I will fight for your rights. Why do you have the right to tell others what to do?

The lack of access to termination for medical reasons is barbaric. I’ll link an article but it’s very harrowing read. Woman in New York, baby had condition incompatible with life. The only place she could access TFMR was Colorado. Procedure was cash. She opted for $10,000 option and flew back to New York to deliver. Full procedure in Colorado was $25,000 cash. This was a woman with a toddler and a much wanted second pregnancy.
jezebel.com/interview-with-a-woman-who-recently-had-an-abortion-at-1781972395/amp

@Snippysocks

Freedom of speech and respect for people is important. Perhaps everyone, including me, needs to remember this. Hence will Mumsnet posters allow me to say that I wouldn't choose to kill a spider or anything else with a heartbeat?. Also, it's very enlightening to watch a few videos to see what actually happens in an abortion and to remember that the unborn can feel pain and react to a stimulus from very early on.

I trap spiders and let them outside. I’ve had an abortion. The consequences of not killing a spider don’t even begins to touch on the impact continuing an unwanted pregnancy would have. You know, nuance and all that.

I have no problem accepting abortion as killing, and as a depriving of life support that results in death. I do not hold the absolutist opinion that killing is always terrible, or unjustified. Again, nuance. Actually, society doesn’t hold that opinion either, given that we routinely kill biologically independent creatures that have far more sentience than a fetus. We also accept that people will die, in pain, without willing organ donors, and yet we respect the autonomy of the dead, and their right to be buried with organs that could otherwise be used.

In regards to whether abortion looks pretty or not, the aesthetics of a procedure have no bearing on whether it’s the correct course of action and ultimately beneficial. If they did you’d have no operations at all, given that none of them are particularly beautiful on the eye.

@Snippysocks

Freedom of speech and respect for people is important. Perhaps everyone, including me, needs to remember this. Hence will Mumsnet posters allow me to say that I wouldn't choose to kill a spider or anything else with a heartbeat?. Also, it's very enlightening to watch a few videos to see what actually happens in an abortion and to remember that the unborn can feel pain and react to a stimulus from very early on.

Well that's just incorrect. Research before you make claims like that.

@MindPalace

But what is specifically making them change their laws now?

The neo-con right wing are in the ascendancy.

@FTEngineerM

Ob/Gyns have said a foetus has no sentience or ability to feel pain at until around 26 weeks

So we measure life on its ability to suffer? That seems absurd.

Well yes we do otherwise killing a plant would be equal to killing an animal.

[quote Ringmaster27]@Hospedia now there’s an image forever bleached into my brain 🤢🤢[/quote]
I know, me too. She’s right though!

Dark days ahead for America

Tbh I think America has always had those dark days (and religion certainly has a lot to answer for there), it's just with social media and Internet use becoming so widespread over the last few years, it's becoming more apparent to the rest of the world.

Deeper than the abortion issue though is the casual/hook up sex culture that needs to change. Young people need to start being taught that sex is for deepening meaningful relationships and creating offspring
Why?

I'd prefer education and respect of self and others to that kind of backward thinking.

The answer to the question would have to be religion and control. We all know that those (mostly) old white dudes who are in control also fight tooth and nail against any kind of support to those who need it most, including the babies they are forcing to be birthed.
The GOP have gone too far to ever come back to anything remotely decent

There are many babies born at 20weeks who now survive and thrive (this is the abortion limit in this country which is shocking)
Ex NICU Dr here that is categorically untrue..

Freedom of speech is important, but freedom of speech also includes being able to challenge an opinion, or even call it a shit opinion. Respecting the right of someone to have an opinion does not mean respecting the opinion itself.

@JanetPluchinsky

Banning abortion doesn’t stop abortions though. It just stops safe, legal ones.

America is a crazy place.

Exactly - abortions will still take place either unsafely or out of state. America is taking a huge step backwards.

Rolanda Hollis & the Pro Vacectomy Bill www.essence.com/articles/rolanda-hollis-vasectomy-bill-alabama/

I do wonder how many people are anti-abortion only due to misinformation. For example posters on here who were misinformed and thought a foetus feels pain, when it does and has no capability to. That it has no developed brainstem, - thus no nerve receptors or sentience or awareness - until the third trimester? Maybe if they are given the facts, they would change their mind?

www.nichd.nih.gov/research/supported/EPBO/use

Have a play with this tool.

*when it does should be when it doesn't.

@DoYouRememberTheInnMiranda

Because many people believe a foetus should have the same right to life as a born person from conception, and that killing it is murder.

That the right of the foetus to life overrides the right of the woman to bodily autonomy.

And yet many of the very same people are enthusiastically in favour of the death penalty. I know none of us think very highly of people who commit murder but we can’t deny they are humans. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Far better to have an abortion than to give birth to an unwanted child

There is also a certain amount of mistrust in the institutions etc that are seen as pro-choice. E.g. Planned parenthood (one of the main abortion providers) has gone a bit nuts in recent years (or possible just following the profits) and started promoting practices that many people who have NO problem with abortion find distasteful (puberty blockers/hormones for teenagers).* Plus, it used to be normal to carry out operations on newborn babies without anaesthetic because "they can't feel pain" (and this is still often the case for circumcision). So although it is easy to argue that the evidence that foetuses don't feel pain until later on is also faulty even though it isn't.

*I don't want to make it all about the T. But the pushing of that agenda by the left in America is causing a huge backlash and it won't just be transgender people that get caught up in it. Especially in a heavily polarised, 2 party voting system. And I am very worried there will also be a backlash in the UK unless labour take their heads out of their arses.

I'm fascinated by the not-insignifcant female support for this. Notably the Trad Wife movement. Why? What do they get out of it? What do they perceive that they will get out of it?

I can guarantee if men bore children, terminations everywhere would be cheap, free and legal-- women need to get more political and stop voting in regressive politicians