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Why is the USA banning abortion?

516 replies

MindPalace · 08/04/2022 13:03

It is absolutely horrifying that 21-26 US states are actively considering outlawing abortion. There are no exemptions for rape or incest in many of the proposals.

I see lots of news articles on this eg this one

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/08/oklahomas-move-to-ban-abortions-is-a-prelude-of-america-without-roe-v-wade

But I can’t find one setting out the reasons why. Why on earth would they want to set back hard-won women’s rights?

And Poland as well. It’s quite scary.

Sorry if there is another recent thread on this btw.

OP posts:
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6
huniepop · 08/04/2022 15:58

And yet many of the very same people are enthusiastically in favour of the death penalty. I know none of us think very highly of people who commit murder but we can’t deny they are humans.

Honestly, some criminals are so bad that they just need to go. The death penalty is bad because innocent people are sometimes killed- not because evil people are put death IMO. If savile was executed, can't say I'd be advocating for his human rights.

But yes! For religious people it does sort of contradict the sanctity of life.

DogandMog · 08/04/2022 15:59

If you read my post closely, you’ll see I include abuse and coertion in the spectrum of unwanted sex, as well as rape that meets the full legal criteria of that crime.

I’m not anti-abortion. I’m pro mindful sex. Pro men respecting women’s bodies by not carelessly shagging us then discarding us, leaving us up shit creek in terms of a broken heart (women produce more oxytocin during sex, leading to deeper feelings of bonding early on), much higher risks of STDs than vice versa and of course the risk of unwanted pregnancy and the emotionally tumultuous decision to make either way. Pro men contributing for 18 + years child support and college fees for the children they create, accruing a debt with the state and requisition of assets if they hide their incomes.

Casual sex is far more harmful to women’s bodies and their future opportunities... it’s not anti feminist or misogynist to point that out and expect a “two to tango” moral share of responsibility for sexual behaviour and its consequences to fall as much on men.

LakieLady · 08/04/2022 16:02

@MindPalace

I’m actually quite interested to see that there are still a fair few people (including women) against abortion. I naively thought that very few people, at least in the UK, thought like that anymore. At least we still have freedom of speech I suppose unless it’s about trans issues/women’s rights - a whole other thread
I don't mind anyone being against abortion. They have every right not to have an abortion.

But I take great objection to them trying to deny that right to women who don't share their views.

MissConductUS · 08/04/2022 16:04

Thus the Supreme Court is Republican (and can ban abortion) but America is not.

The Supreme Court cannot ban abortion. What they might do is overturn Roe v Wade, which found a constitutional right to abortion. If that happens the law devolves to the states, as it did before Roe. Some states (NY, for example) has a constitutional right to abortion, so it will remain legal in those states or others that don't pass laws restricting it.

whumpthereitis · 08/04/2022 16:06

Really, the ‘abortion shouldn’t happen’ horse has already bolted beyond any control of pro lifers. What already has, and will continue to, revolutionize abortion access for women is the combination of the internet, and the abortion pill. Politicians can deny access to it, but anyone can go online and with a few clicks buy misoprostol to have it delivered within days.

It is certainly better for women to be able to access abortion freely, without shame, and with access to medical care during and after the procedure, but if they can’t there is an alternative that WILL be used. It already is being.

whumpthereitis · 08/04/2022 16:10

I’m not anti-abortion. I’m pro mindful sex. Pro men respecting women’s bodies by not carelessly shagging us then discarding us, leaving us up shit creek in terms of a broken heart (women produce more oxytocin during sex, leading to deeper feelings of bonding early on), much higher risks of STDs than vice versa and of course the risk of unwanted pregnancy and the emotionally tumultuous decision to make either way. Pro men contributing for 18 + years child support and college fees for the children they create, accruing a debt with the state and requisition of assets if they hide their incomes.

You can be pro men taking responsibility without denying any responsibility women also have, and without, ironically enough, paternalistically treating women like children incapable of asserting their own sexuality because they’ve made decisions you personally wouldn’t, and dislike.

AmericanStickInsect · 08/04/2022 16:15

If abortion is criminalised then every man who contributes to a pregnancy in a woman who isn't explicitly trying to get pregnant should be done for reckless endangerment of a child.

SenecaFallsRedux · 08/04/2022 16:18

@MissConductUS

Thus the Supreme Court is Republican (and can ban abortion) but America is not.

The Supreme Court cannot ban abortion. What they might do is overturn Roe v Wade, which found a constitutional right to abortion. If that happens the law devolves to the states, as it did before Roe. Some states (NY, for example) has a constitutional right to abortion, so it will remain legal in those states or others that don't pass laws restricting it.

This is a very good explanation of the legal framework. Also, as the law stands now, Roe is still a controlling precedent and many of these recent state anti-abortion laws are unconstitutional as enacted. That could change, of course, if the Supreme Court overturns or curtails Roe v. Wade.
latriciamcneal · 08/04/2022 16:22

@IncompleteSenten

Well yes but there's all and there's all.

To take inspiration from Animal Farm... All people are equal but some are more white middle class evangelical 'christian' male equal than others

They're restricting white people's access to abortion too.
NeverDropYourMooncup · 08/04/2022 16:22

@DogandMog

If you read my post closely, you’ll see I include abuse and coertion in the spectrum of unwanted sex, as well as rape that meets the full legal criteria of that crime.

I’m not anti-abortion. I’m pro mindful sex. Pro men respecting women’s bodies by not carelessly shagging us then discarding us, leaving us up shit creek in terms of a broken heart (women produce more oxytocin during sex, leading to deeper feelings of bonding early on), much higher risks of STDs than vice versa and of course the risk of unwanted pregnancy and the emotionally tumultuous decision to make either way. Pro men contributing for 18 + years child support and college fees for the children they create, accruing a debt with the state and requisition of assets if they hide their incomes.

Casual sex is far more harmful to women’s bodies and their future opportunities... it’s not anti feminist or misogynist to point that out and expect a “two to tango” moral share of responsibility for sexual behaviour and its consequences to fall as much on men.

And if you think more closely, you'll understand that the implementation of that would be impossible.

You can't police women as to whether they managed to be raped properly. Some fight back and get battered, some freeze and get battered, some freeze and aren't battered. Some are conscious when raped, some are not, whether it's due to being battered, being asleep (because it is perfectly possible to be raped whilst sleeping), unwell, drugged, intoxicated or being in a fucking coma in a hospital bed. Some are raped by strangers. Some are raped by their husbands, boyfriends, friends, brothers, father, uncles, grandfathers, priests, employers, colleagues, doctors, carers or any other man that is known to them. 'Ah, but did you really fight back as hard as you have done? he could have killed you if he was choking you. But you're not dead. So did you really fight it?'

You can't police whether they were properly coerced and raped. Is the only coercion acceptable a knife to the throat? Or a subsequently denied threat, whine, claim that he might as well kill himself, an 'I thought she consented' or 'she led me on so far I couldn't stop'?

Do you police rapes by stealthing 'I didn't take it off, she said bareback was fine', 'we were trying for a baby', 'it fell off', 'it was in the heat of the moment and she only freaked out afterwards'?

Abuse is hidden. It's covered up, it's disguised and explained and denied. If somebody has been gaslighted into thinking their abuser loves them but then has a moment of clarity when they realise they've been abused and coerced or raped and they do not want to be pregnant, how do you police that? 'There's no evidence of abuse, you were still living with him, you didn't tell the police, you didn't seek treatment for any injuries, you're a married woman, he's already said that you like it rough, those injuries you got treatment for were consensual, you've already had four children by him, you clearly consent to having sex and babies with him, is it the case as he says that you just weren't sure who the father is this time?'

You are proposing something almost identical to a court insisting that women are punished for sex outside marriage unless the rape is witnessed by a male relative who gives evidence that this was not consented to by him or her official male next of kin and it was completed forced, she fought but was beaten until she was unable to resist any further.

By its very nature, rape, coercion and abuse is difficult to police or evidence. By refusing terminations to women and children unless they can meet your definition of those terms, you're abusing those women and children further. For the rest of their lives. All on the behalf of their rapist, who didn't care if they got pregnant or wanted them to get pregnant as part of their abuse and violence.

You are therefore not 'pro-life other in terms of cases of coercion, abuse and rape'. You are pro-rapist, pro-abuser, pro-hebephile, pro-narcophile, pro-domestic violence where it's perpetrated by men, pro-rapists' sperm.

dfendyr · 08/04/2022 16:30

@DogandMog

Abortion needs to remain legal on the statute books for women in situations of rape and abuse, and I mean that in a more broad sense, including coercive sex.

Men need to start being held morally, legally and financially responsible for the messes that unwanted pregnancies bring. Maybe they should start being forced to think in advance where and how they dip their appendages. There's DNA tests these days to arbitrate disputes.

Deeper than the abortion issue though is the casual/hook up sex culture that needs to change. Young people need to start being taught that sex is for deepening meaningful relationships and creating offspring. And that when opposite gametes are intimately close, there's ALWAYS a possibility of pregnancy, no matter what contraception is used. Both sexes using each other as living sex robots in throwaway encounters is as depressing and dehumanising as it gets.

Abortion needs to remain legal on the statute books for women in situations of rape and abuse, and I mean that in a more broad sense, including coercive sex.

So its ok to terminate a pg where the woman didnt want to have sex? but not ok if she had sex for fun? Because that is what you are saying by saying its ok if the woman was raped etc

So are you advocating for the unborn baby or punishing the woman??

SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 08/04/2022 16:31

The United States is very different to the UK, that I do know.

SockFluffInTheBath · 08/04/2022 16:31

@latriciamcneal

Well yes but there's all and there's all.

To take inspiration from Animal Farm... All people are equal but some are more white middle class evangelical 'christian' male equal than others

They're restricting white people's access to abortion too.

Not for males they’re not. Her point was that the white middle-class evangelical MALES are more equal than the others (women).

BlessedByTheShitFairy · 08/04/2022 16:33

The concept of 'God' has always been a great excuse for individuals who do not want to have to take responsibility for their own lives, beliefs or actions.
"But but b-b-b-but....it's God's will!"

Same way 'boys will be boys' excuses men from having to take responsibility for how they behave.

My pipe dream: keep religion and corporate away from politics.
Never gonna happen :(

speakout · 08/04/2022 16:33

*Lots of people have the genuinely held view that abortion is murder, for them this is why it is such an emotive subject for them. The believe that to oppose abortion is to save lives, and save innocent lives.
*

Yeah yeah, but these pale stale right wing conservative men, misogynistic, bible bashing are usually members of gun clubs, support the death penalty- this is about power.

They are trying to remove freedom from women.

midsomermurderess · 08/04/2022 16:35

It's an attempt by a patriarchal, male-dominated Christian-fundamentalist stage to control women.

DigitusImpudicus · 08/04/2022 16:35

👏🏼 👏🏼 clap @NeverDropYourMooncup

Very well said

midsomermurderess · 08/04/2022 16:36

'State'.

Thejoyfulstar · 08/04/2022 16:36

@MindPalace

Yes, that’s me. I can’t comprehend the anti-abortion stance at all. But I do respect those who are brave enough to explain their views here, as it is probably difficult given the strong views of others on MN.
I never talk about this in real life and am not here for a debate about my views, but seeing as you seem genuinely curious and not goady, I'm going to share my views.

I believe that human life begins at conception. I can't disengage with this belief. I just can't. I want to be sensitive as I'm aware there are women here who have had abortions, for many reasons and I have no intentions of upsetting anyone. I'm sure I will no matter what I say, however.

I see all stages from conception as another step in the life of a human...zygote, embryo, foetus, newborn, toddler etc. I don't see birth as the defining moment that the baby assumes rights, (morally, not legally) and don't feel that the fact that it's reliance on the mother while inutero means that it's isn't a person.
I don't see the baby as a cluster of cells, any more than I see an adult as a bigger cluster of cells.

I've had 3 kids so know the physical and emotional toll that pregnancy and childbearing takes. I know that every woman has her own unique story and that my circumstances have been very privileged. I haven't walked in any other woman's shoes so I never judge. I also think society should be set up to support women much more effectively and that many women really feel that they are left with no other option. However I just can't switch off my beliefs that it's not one body, it's two bodies, and I can't relate to the concept of having a 'choice' that ends the life of another living human, in or out of the womb.

As I said, I don't discuss this with other people as I don't know their story. I don't engage in debates about it as it generally goes round in circles. But for the sake of answering your question which seemed to be in good faith, those are my two cents. I'm feeding my baby at the minute and my other kids keep interrupting me so I've provably expressed myself horribly.

Babochan88 · 08/04/2022 16:38

Hopefully because they realise how awful it is to allow laws that kill children. Yes. It’s a woman’s body - but you have no right to take a life.

BlessedByTheShitFairy · 08/04/2022 16:38

I have no problem accepting abortion as killing, and as a depriving of life support that results in death. I do not hold the absolutist opinion that killing is always terrible, or unjustified. Again, nuance

I strongly doubt the neo-con right or its associated press are interested in nuance, nor its followers in the US or further afield. Our own tabloid press simply thrives on purposely obscuring it.

Babochan88 · 08/04/2022 16:39

It’s not about controlling women, if men were able to give birth - abortion would still be abhorrent

BlessedByTheShitFairy · 08/04/2022 16:40

*purposefully.

dfendyr · 08/04/2022 16:41

@Babochan88

It’s not about controlling women, if men were able to give birth - abortion would still be abhorrent
bollocks
CarryonCovid · 08/04/2022 16:42

Hopefully because they realise how awful it is to allow laws that kill children. Yes. It’s a woman’s body - but you have no right to take a life

Please see my link further up. These are not children, they are not capable of independent life. If abortion is illegal or hard to obtain, infanticide will increase, now that is killing children. Desperate people do desperate things.