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Why is the USA banning abortion?

516 replies

MindPalace · 08/04/2022 13:03

It is absolutely horrifying that 21-26 US states are actively considering outlawing abortion. There are no exemptions for rape or incest in many of the proposals.

I see lots of news articles on this eg this one

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/08/oklahomas-move-to-ban-abortions-is-a-prelude-of-america-without-roe-v-wade

But I can’t find one setting out the reasons why. Why on earth would they want to set back hard-won women’s rights?

And Poland as well. It’s quite scary.

Sorry if there is another recent thread on this btw.

OP posts:
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6
whumpthereitis · 08/04/2022 15:24

You cannot stop abortions. You can only stop safe abortions. You can make them illegal, leaving only unsafe ones available

This is the bottom line. Arguing about whether fetuses should have rights or not, whether abortion should happen or not, is ultimately pointless. Abortions happen. They have always happened and they always will. Even Plato speaks on the practice. It’s not some modern phenomenon that will just stop happening because the law says no.

“Of the approximately 42 million abortions that do occur worldwide, almost half are performed by unskilled individuals, in environments that do not meet minimum medical standards or both. Virtually all of these unsafe abortions take place in the developing world, where the unmet need for contraception remains high and very restrictive abortion laws often are the norm”

www.guttmacher.org/gpr/2009/11/facts-and-consequences-legality-incidence-and-safety-abortion-worldwide

www.guttmacher.org/report/abortion-worldwide-2017

“Unsafe abortion is a leading – but preventable – cause of maternal deaths and morbidities. It can lead to physical and mental health complications and social and financial burdens for women, communities and health systems”

www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/abortion

This is the reality of ‘pro life’ laws, regardless of whether proponents would like to accept it or not.

Hersetta427 · 08/04/2022 15:25

@MindPalace

But what is specifically making them change their laws now?
Having the republicans in control of the supreme court gives them the confidence to change state law. They are on the way to overturning Roe vs Wade.
BoredZelda · 08/04/2022 15:25

Pro-life views clearly don’t extend to providing free medical care to all, to enable the poorest in society to - shock horror - actually live.

That’s why using the term “pro-birth” rather than pro-life is a far more accurate description.

But to answer the original question, this is happening now because US politics have led to the Republicans being a far more right wing party than it has previously been.

There have always been elements of the Republican Party who wanted Row v Wade reversed. These were the more fundamental “Christian” Republicans who have never really been happy with abortion being made legal. They would have banned it years ago if the political landscape made it possible.

The red states have been making it harder for women to get an abortion for decades. Reducing the numbers of clinics available, defunding planned parenthood, only providing the bare minimum of services they could get away with, putting more stringent restrictions and increasing the number of reasons clinicians can use to refuse to perform.

Then Trump came along and the more right wing politicians were emboldened to start saying the quiet part out loud. New more right wing, Trumpist senators and members of congress were voted in and suddenly there are enough to be able to pass this kind of legislation. Add in a couple more Supreme Court judges who are likely to make favourable rulings and voila, the stage is set for banning abortions across the states.

Hospedia · 08/04/2022 15:26

In all fairness, Orem babies can be born & kept alive earlier and earlier in the pregnancy

Really? Because viability rates are not improving. We are getting better at treating and supporting premature babies however gestational age dictates viability due to what stage of development the pregnancy is at, we are not able to give a 21wk foetus the lung development of a 26wk foetus no matter how good our current medical capabilities, that's just biology. 1 in 10 of all premature babies will have a permanent disability such as lung disease, cerebral palsy, blindness or deafness and 1 in 2 of premature babies born before 26 weeks of gestation will have some sort of disability. Again, this has not improved.

Thats not even mentioning the "but premature babies survive" being a total red herring in the abortion debate (and the fact the issue is a debate seriously fucks me of, bodily autonomy should never be a question of debate). One is a pregnancy that the woman chose to continue and planned to carry to full term, the other is a pregnancy that woman either cannot continue or does not want to continue. Both had a choice about keeping their pregnancy or ending their pregnancy and both of their choices are valid, just because one pregnancy has ended in an unplanned premature birth does not mean the other be denied an abortion.

late abortions are getting a lot closer to a killing

Late abortions are a red herring too. The vast majority of abortions in the UK are carried out prior to 10wks gestation, 88% of them, with this figure rising to 95% prior to 13wks and 99% by 20wks. Only around 0.1% of abortions take place after 24wks and all of these are for serious health issues. Some problems with pregnancy cannot be detected until the 12wk dating scan, specific blood tests are not carried out until 16wks, and the anomaly scan does not take place until 18-22wks. These stats include women ending pregnancies because they do not want to be pregnant and women ending pregnancies on medical grounds, the majority of Cat C abortions (pregnancy is less than 24wks gestation and continuing would risk the woman's mental and/or physical health) are completed prior to 13wks - long before the age of viability.

BoredZelda · 08/04/2022 15:26

*Roe v Wade

UhtredsLatestPaganHussy · 08/04/2022 15:26

Sorry, @MayMorris, but you're misinformed there. Abortion was actually legal in several US states prior to Roe v Wade's landmark case in 1973. Smile

5YearsLeft · 08/04/2022 15:27

[quote Twizbe]@5YearsLeft don't forget the women who are denied an abortion also have to pay to give birth. With insurance this might be around $5k without it could be in the hundreds of thousands.

[/quote]
Sigh. How could I forget? The average out of pocket cost for a woman WITH insurance is $3000. For a C-section, $5000. How many of us can afford that? And yes, that’s the average, meaning some pay a lot more, even though they have insurance (and some pay less, but that still means in the thousands).
amp.usatoday.com/amp/4452475002
Adding insult to injury, it doesn’t even include any of the medication she’ll need for pain or usually care for the baby, which is often a separate charge from the hospital and in the thousands as well.

And that’s just the beginning. How many times do we see “call your health visitor” on these threads? But there are no HVs in America. No system of midwives (in America, people can call themselves “midwives” if they just graduate from secondary school, have no formal medical training, and take some kind of short course that varies from state to state). Your care is almost always consultant led because as that’s all there usually is and always expensive as a result. There are some certified nurse midwives, which means they went through school to become a nurse and also learned about midwifery, but they don’t have whole units of them, and they’re often just in large cities, and they still cost as much as consultants from the UK, or more. More and more people choose home births with the type of US midwives that have no formal medical training at all because it’s cheaper and these “midwives” end up in situations where they can’t revive babies, they can’t determine the baby is in distress and the mother needs a hospital transfer and they wait too long, etc etc). Everything that might be wrong means a doctor’s appointment and every appointment means $$$ (even with insurance, $20 for every appointment is considered to be “good” - $50 to $100 is common). If the baby has tongue tie or CMPA, the thousands of dollars could just keep mounting. And what if the mother is birth injured? Then it’s doctor’s appointments that all cost money, prescriptions that all cost money, treatment that all costs money, surgeries that all cost money. And when the medical care has caused bankruptcy ( no surprise that medical bankruptcy is responsible for 66% of American bankruptcies when just giving birth to a child with insurance costs $5000, just imagine what fighting cancer costs)… what then? We all know exactly what.

“What then” is there are plenty of Americans who die every day because they can’t afford medical care. I’m sure with these new abortion laws, more and more of them will be reluctantly expectant mothers. It’s heartbreaking.

Echobelly · 08/04/2022 15:27

Why? Two words: 'Misogyny' and 'Christianity'

Of course, not all Christians support 'forced birth', but an awful lot in America do and they are a poweful lobby.

Lack of access to birth control and abortion is a great way to control women - impregnate them as often as possible and they can't just run off with all those kids. They will need their Strong Christian Father to Provide for them. And put women in their place by making them experience the 'consequences of their actions' - while never mentioning the role of the man who got them pregnant. He was just 'doing what comes naturally' for men after all, while of course the woman should have never 'put out' in the first place. Hmm

nitsandwormsdodger · 08/04/2022 15:28

mintbiscuit

What makes me really sick is the pro life female supporters campaigning to have other women’s rights taken away

Go on ... please elaborate

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 08/04/2022 15:28

@OuttaBabylon

God. It's because of God.
Massively, the US is full of the nut job Christians (not saying all Christians are nuts). To use god is ridiculous as god is definitely not pro life. Abortions are no one else's business but the person it involves. If you don't like it, don't get one. This is all about control of women and taking away a woman's right to choose, the sad part is, some women are happy about that.
nopuppiesallowed · 08/04/2022 15:30

Freedom of speech and respect for people is important. Perhaps everyone, including me, needs to remember this. Hence will Mumsnet posters allow me to say that I wouldn't choose to kill a spider or anything else with a heartbeat?. Also, it's very enlightening to watch a few videos to see what actually happens in an abortion and to remember that the unborn can feel pain and react to a stimulus from very early on.

Hospedia · 08/04/2022 15:32

Massively, the US is full of the nut job Christians (not saying all Christians are nuts). To use god is ridiculous as god is definitely not pro life.

They always seem to overlook that abortion is in the Bible, including a method on how to carry it out and specific mention of it not being a sin.

Ringmaster27 · 08/04/2022 15:32

@whumpthereitis this with bells on.
Abortions have been carried out since the beginning of time.
Removing access to a legal abortion won’t stop it from occurring. It will just mean more women die from DIY or back alley jobs.
I’ll never forget my Nana telling me about a girl she worked with in her teens (so late 1940’s/early 1950’s) who ended up dying after drinking Jeyes fluid in an attempt to terminate an unwanted pregnancy Sad Poor lass couldn’t afford to go to the woman everyone knew about but didn’t talk about who “helped girls in trouble” - not that going to her was guaranteed to be any safer Sad

BoredZelda · 08/04/2022 15:32

As a woman in Northern Ireland, comments like this really frustrate me. Where is your anger about Northern Irish women having to travel, across water not just land, for abortions up until very recently, and still quite regularly as pointed out by previous posters. Where is your anger that the DUP still want to ban abortion, under religious grounds?

Confident that of you start a thread about it, you’ll find as many are angry about that too.

TimBoothseyes · 08/04/2022 15:33

The irony is that many pro-lifers in the US are also pro guns. They don't get to take the moral high ground when it comes to "all life is sacred".

Brefugee · 08/04/2022 15:33

Those in favour of abortion are seemingly unable to comprehend that there is a sizable amount of people who are against it.

No. Those not in favour of giving women full control over their reproductive rights are anti-women. That is the bottom line. If you don't agree with abortion don't have one.

The taliban and the neo-cons in the USA have a lot in common in terms of how they view women's rights.

DancingBarefootOnIce · 08/04/2022 15:34

I wonder how many women will have to die to get them to rethink this (not that they've given it much thought).

Of course, it won't apply to the rich - like a lot of things you can get around them by having the money to take a flight to another state or country.

HangingRock25 · 08/04/2022 15:35

@Snippysocks

Freedom of speech and respect for people is important. Perhaps everyone, including me, needs to remember this. Hence will Mumsnet posters allow me to say that I wouldn't choose to kill a spider or anything else with a heartbeat?. Also, it's very enlightening to watch a few videos to see what actually happens in an abortion and to remember that the unborn can feel pain and react to a stimulus from very early on.
@Snippysocks I would be careful of these 'videos'. They are all doctored with lies, half-truths and false information. The unborn cannot feel pain until the THIRD TRIMESTER. And since 99% of abortions are performed well before the third trimester, those 'videos', are LIES. The unborn cannot feel any pain when aborted. What you are watching, is LIES. Unfortunately if you don't educate yourself on the true facts you will gullibly fall for those faked videos.
Pluvia · 08/04/2022 15:36

@BuffyFanForever

It is absolutely not about hating women. Half of the babies aborted are women! It is due to the continuing scientific and medical knowledge being gained. There are many babies born at 20weeks who now survive and thrive (this is the abortion limit in this country which is shocking). Yes there are strong lobbyists in the US who are Christian but there are also many other people who support the rights of babies to not be harmed.
Are you seriously saying that the refusal to allow a woman to have autonomy over her body isn't an expression of hatred and lack of respect of women? Because I can tell you that's how women experience it. What will they have to do before you recognise the misogyny? Take your vote away?

It's horrifying, watching the US reversing back into the 19th century in the clutches of the twin religions of Christianity and gender ideology. I don't think I've ever been so appreciative of living here on terf island and watching the rest of Europe resisting this latest US import.

KobaniDaughters · 08/04/2022 15:36

Ahem it’s actually not “The US” there are still states who believe in women’s rights (and all human rights) and would be a lot more progressive if they weren’t part of the union. How I wish we could have a west coast succession from the rest of the country

Ohsugarhoneyicetea · 08/04/2022 15:36

If you cant treat undocumented immigrants as human, you're going to have to come up with some other reason for being anti abortion than Christianity.

MindPalace · 08/04/2022 15:37

Thank you for the explanations.

I guess I always thought that much of the US had the type of Christian views and right wing leanings that meant that many people were already anti abortion. So I wasn’t clear about what seemed (to me at least) to have changed so dramatically.

And yes, I think I did miss the effect of the new membership of the Supreme Court, apologies.

In any case, it’s not good.

Thanks to PP for the reference to the film ‘unpregnant’. I’ll try to find it to watch.

OP posts:
Fraaahnces · 08/04/2022 15:37

The world is teetering again. We have religious fundamentalism, economic depression looming, overpopulation, etc… Priming for a huge war.

SockFluffInTheBath · 08/04/2022 15:39

@Snippysocks

Freedom of speech and respect for people is important. Perhaps everyone, including me, needs to remember this. Hence will Mumsnet posters allow me to say that I wouldn't choose to kill a spider or anything else with a heartbeat?. Also, it's very enlightening to watch a few videos to see what actually happens in an abortion and to remember that the unborn can feel pain and react to a stimulus from very early on.
“ According to a study published last summer in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), a fetus is not capable of experiencing pain until 28 to 30 weeks after conception, when the nerves that carry painful stimuli to the brain have developed. Before that, the fetal reaction to a noxious stimulus is a reflex that does not involve consciousness”
huniepop · 08/04/2022 15:39

[quote Twizbe]@Verity226 I am able to accept that people don't like abortion and would not have one themselves.

What I struggle with is anyone else deciding that they have the right to decide whether I give birth or not.

I also struggle with these same people seemingly being unwilling to champion good quality sex education, free contraception, support for families including paid maternity leave, income support, universal health care, basically anything that would prevent unwanted pregnancy or support those in the situation.

I also struggle to understand how having a gun which can kill people is ok, but having access to abortion isn't ok. [/quote]

Yes I agree with you. You can't control how people will feel about abortions. If we're honest, plenty of people (myself included) are comfortable with later abortions but support it out of necessity.

Even a shorter time restriction would be more reasonable than just outright banning- including for ectopic pregnancy (which is just evil tbh)

And yeah, these laws are insane. I find it so scary that people just carry guns around everyone, mad place.