Why is the USA banning abortion?

[MindPalace]

It is absolutely horrifying that 21-26 US states are actively considering outlawing abortion. There are no exemptions for rape or incest in many of the proposals.

I see lots of news articles on this eg this one

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/08/oklahomas-move-to-ban-abortions-is-a-prelude-of-america-without-roe-v-wade

But I can’t find one setting out the reasons why. Why on earth would they want to set back hard-won women’s rights?

And Poland as well. It’s quite scary.

Sorry if there is another recent thread on this btw.

What have I said that's supportive of pro lifers ???

I was just pointing out it's totally separate to the trans issue

@Hospedia

Boris Johnson would sing the National Anthem naked in Primark's front window whilst accompanying himself on a kazoo jammed between his flabby arsecheeks if he thiught it was going to win him votes.

What a horrific image you have just put in my head. Incidentally Boris abstained on the abortion at home legislation despite telling one of his pregnant mistresses to have an abortion. At least the majority of Tory MPs did vote in favour.

America has truly awful attitudes towards women. The democrats promised to introduce maternity leave and flopped out of it. The republicans have been wanting to do this for years but have been waiting for the balance to tip on the Supreme Court.

LethargeMarg

Sorry I mis- quoted you.

My post was in answer to huniepop

@WiseUpJanetWeiss

There's a huge crossover between anti-trans and pro-life in US states banning abortion

That's as may be. Bigots gonna bigot. But rad fems and GC women are neither anti-trans nor are they generally anti-choice. They are pro women.

Aye, much like anti-abortionists are pro life.

No buts to you. However, there is a but.

No one has the right to take someone else’s life. The argument of when life starts is a way to take away the guilt of what people are doing. It’s wrong and deep down everyone knows it is.

And even if you don’t believe it’s wrong, that still doesn’t make murder right. That’s literally what it is. Fighting for children to be born doesn’t make people evil, having an abortion doesn’t make you evil. But we will fight for children, in the womb and out.

Babochan88

So as a PP has suggested- if the only option for a child to survive is to have a parent's should that parent be forced to donate?

@Babochan88

No buts to you. However, there is a but.

No one has the right to take someone else’s life. The argument of when life starts is a way to take away the guilt of what people are doing. It’s wrong and deep down everyone knows it is.

And even if you don’t believe it’s wrong, that still doesn’t make murder right. That’s literally what it is. Fighting for children to be born doesn’t make people evil, having an abortion doesn’t make you evil. But we will fight for children, in the womb and out.

@Babochan88 No, there is no but. You are not fighting for a 'life'. You are fighting for the end of an ACTUAL life in the woman. There is no guilty in an abortion. Deep down you know there is no guilt, that abortion is right and a right.

Instead of fighting for something that doesn't exist, how about you fight for the rights of the woman to not be made to be a Gestational Slaver. What you are doing is wrong @Babochan88 and on some level you must know it is wrong to support Gestational Slavery and give more rights to something that doesn't even exist and has no sentience. Fighting for a woman to have less rights than a corpse, to die in a back alley does indeed make you very evil.

It’s wrong and deep down everyone knows it is

Don't tell other people what they think.

Also, interesting numbers at the end of your username @Babochan88

The US is certainly more religious than the UK (except, of course, for the established church bit in England), but religion is not as pervasive as many on MN assume. Quite the contrary.

www.npr.org/2021/03/30/982671783/fewer-than-half-of-u-s-adults-belong-to-a-religious-congregation-new-poll-shows

If savile was executed, can't say I'd be advocating for his human rights.

You should be. Because if one innocent person is killed, even if 100 Savilles are, is that a price you’d pay with your life, or that of a loved one?

No one has the right to take someone else’s life. The argument of when life starts is a way to take away the guilt of what people are doing. It’s wrong and deep down everyone knows it is.

Because you would like this to be true doesn’t make it so. As much as you would like to think this is a universal truth that everyone is secretly aware of but denying, genuinely thinking this is an exercise in deluding yourself. Not sure if it’s because you can’t comprehend that people feel differently to you, or whether you hold yourself to be a supreme moral authority, but either way you’re kidding yourself.

I don’t necessarily think pro lifers are evil. I think they may very well have the best intentions, but denying that the stone cold reality of criminalizing abortion isn’t saved babies, but injured and dead women? Yes, that is ‘evil’. ‘Evil’ born of stupidity and willful denial perhaps, but evil nonetheless.

Fighting for children to be born doesn’t make people evil, having an abortion doesn’t make you evil. But we will fight for children, in the womb and out.

Are you also fighting for better medical care for children? For better provision from the government for disabled children? For more inclusion and support for disabled children in mainstream schools and better enhanced provision? For a much fairer care system so children in care don’t become neglected, leaving care with far worse outcomes? Because, unless you are, then you aren’t fighting for those children outside the womb, as these are the children you are forcing women to bring into the world.

But we will fight for children, in the womb and out.

You're a forced birther who would enslave and destroy women and exploit the sanctity of life in doing so, since women's lives mean shit all to you. Gestation and labour are major procedures with permanent consequences and the risk of death and you would force women to do it when they don't want to. Plenty of women would rather risk their lives with coat hangers and hot baths, and you would promote this, and claim respect for life in the process.

If you don't like abortion, don't have one.

@Babochan88

No buts to you. However, there is a but.

No one has the right to take someone else’s life. The argument of when life starts is a way to take away the guilt of what people are doing. It’s wrong and deep down everyone knows it is.

And even if you don’t believe it’s wrong, that still doesn’t make murder right. That’s literally what it is. Fighting for children to be born doesn’t make people evil, having an abortion doesn’t make you evil. But we will fight for children, in the womb and out.

No. 'everyone' most certainly does not think abortion is murder.Don't you dare even try speak for me. Terminating an unwanted pregnancy should be every woman's right. If you want to take that right away from women, you and your ilk can bloody raise the unwanted children then. Open orphanages for the victims of your forced birth utopia.

The argument of when life starts is a way to take away the guilt of what people are doing.

It really isn't.

When life starts is a really important question if you intend to pass laws which makes a woman's life subordinate to a foetus. You need to be able to answer that question to have any ethical integrity. The answer may be different depending on whether you are considering it from a philosophical, scientific or legal perspective. Either way you cannot give a potential human life the same rights as a living woman and then leave it to the discretion of doctors to prioritise.

If you cannot engage with this question in a meaningful way then I don't think you should be quite so casual about removing a woman's right to choose.

Because there are a whole lot of bible bashing conservatives over there!

And even if you don’t believe it’s wrong, that still doesn’t make murder right. That’s literally what it is. Fighting for children to be born doesn’t make people evil, having an abortion doesn’t make you evil. But we will fight for children, in the womb and out

Really. You’d fight for them out side of the womb? Because, the only people I have ever seen protesting abortion don’t give a flying fuck about the babies or their mothers once they are born if they persuade them not to abort.

How do you fight for them outside the womb? Do you help the mothers get mental health support, money for a child they may not be able to afford, healthcare abs support for a child who may be disabled or a mother left disabled by birth?

I used to live down the road from a marie stopes clinic.

I had a missed miscarriage, 12 weeks. Because the NHS is a pile of shit, I was supposed to walk around with my dead baby inside me for another 4 weeks until they deigned to help me out. So I went to Marie Stopes.

The worst fucking day of my life was walking through the protesters telling me I was going to hell when my much wanted baby was already dead inside me.

I would never have an abortion myself. I say never - I have lucky had 3 DC. I sometimes think that if one had had some awful disorder that would have meant they wouldn’t have survived birth or died in pain shortly after, then I might have. but even then, I don’t think I would have been able to abort.

But I sure as hell defend any other woman’s right to make her own choice on what to do in any situation, even if I wouldn’t do it myself.

Can you imagine the misery, carrying a baby by a rapist would put you through. Or knowing your child is going to be so disabled that life was to be hell. I personally think abortion shouldn't be banned because it has dangerous repercussions. Maybe make the time you can opt for one, to be at an earlier stage. It's a mine field.

@SpringHasSprungYay

Because there are a whole lot of bible bashing conservatives over there!

True to a certain extent, but much of the opposition to abortion in the US comes from Catholics, many of whom are quite liberal on other issues.

The rape issue is a huge concern. Whilst some women choose to carry their rapist’s child (and hopefully they are happy with this) many dont want to. I can’t even imagine the hell of having to get over the trauma of a rape and then also having a reminder of it for the next nine months.

It is beyond cruel to force a woman to go through that. A woman must be able to choose to have an abortion.

Pro lifers shout long and loud about wanting to protect children. It's all about children's lives. Protecting the children is soooo important.

10 year old child repeatedly raped by her uncle became pregnant and had to fight for an abortion.
www.hrw.org/news/2020/08/20/10-year-old-girls-ordeal-have-legal-abortion-brazil
People who care so much about the lives of children published this child's identity and protested trying to prevent this child rape victim from aborting her rapist uncle's baby. Ten years old. Raped repeatedly from the age of 6. But that's ok cos foetus has rights. Make her give birth. She was 10. She would probably have died but never mind. Foetus rights. If it didn't kill her she'd be left holding her rapist's baby. At ten years old. But that's ok cos foetus rights.

Also similar cases in India and many more all over the world that we never even hear about.

People that care so very very much about children never seem to care too much about these ones. They made this poor child's horrible life even worse.

Why do "pro lifers" think a bunch of cells is more important than the unwillingly pregnant mother?

If they were truly pro life they would consider the life of the mother and the quality of life an unwanted baby might have.

@BuffyFanForever

It is absolutely not about hating women. Half of the babies aborted are women! It is due to the continuing scientific and medical knowledge being gained. There are many babies born at 20weeks who now survive and thrive (this is the abortion limit in this country which is shocking). Yes there are strong lobbyists in the US who are Christian but there are also many other people who support the rights of babies to not be harmed.

This is absolutely not true *@BuffyFanForever* - 20 week gestation surviving and thriving. Where did you get that information from?

Women deserve equal rights, why don’t disabled people?

Disabled people absolutely deserve equity however they are people, a pregnancy is not a person.

Let's be blunt here, the majority of caring responsibilities fall to women. It is women who give up or limit their careers, women who see their earning potential fall, who lose out on their retirement pot, and so on and this is even more true when that woman is caring for a disabled person. As well as the financial and social implications of being a carer there is also the toll it takes on physical and mental health, caring is fucking hard. And the one question that keeps most carers awake at night? "What happens to him/her when I get too old to do this? What happens to him/her when I'm gone?"

If someone does not feel prepared to bring a disabled child into the world then they absolutely should not be forced into doing so.