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Why is the USA banning abortion?

516 replies

MindPalace · 08/04/2022 13:03

It is absolutely horrifying that 21-26 US states are actively considering outlawing abortion. There are no exemptions for rape or incest in many of the proposals.

I see lots of news articles on this eg this one

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/08/oklahomas-move-to-ban-abortions-is-a-prelude-of-america-without-roe-v-wade

But I can’t find one setting out the reasons why. Why on earth would they want to set back hard-won women’s rights?

And Poland as well. It’s quite scary.

Sorry if there is another recent thread on this btw.

OP posts:
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speakout · 08/04/2022 18:26

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. We've removed this because it quotes a previously deleted post

StuckInABook · 08/04/2022 18:28

I have not read the full thread but there is some misinformation that I've noticed and feel the need to refute. The main one is that pro-life people (or anti abortion, if you prefer) don't support the mother and child after birth or adopt the babies. That couldn't be further from the truth in my experience; I know a pro-life doctor and his wife who have adopt 7 children, all who have medical issues, a senior woman who has spent her entire free time for over 3 decades offering support and financial assistance to women who have changed their minds about having an abortion, several couples who are struggling with infertility and have been on a waiting list to adopt for several years. The most vocal pro-life advocates that I have come in contact with have always practised what they preach. And it may come as a surprise to many Mumsnetters but not a single one of them was/is a supporter of Trump.

HangingRock25 · 08/04/2022 18:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. We've removed this because it quoted a previously deleted post.

codeVeronica · 08/04/2022 18:29

If you think not wanting to have a baby with severely life limiting conditions means that someone shouldn't be allowed to work with disabled people, you are the one lacking empathy.

HangingRock25 · 08/04/2022 18:31

@StuckInABook

I have not read the full thread but there is some misinformation that I've noticed and feel the need to refute. The main one is that pro-life people (or anti abortion, if you prefer) don't support the mother and child after birth or adopt the babies. That couldn't be further from the truth in my experience; I know a pro-life doctor and his wife who have adopt 7 children, all who have medical issues, a senior woman who has spent her entire free time for over 3 decades offering support and financial assistance to women who have changed their minds about having an abortion, several couples who are struggling with infertility and have been on a waiting list to adopt for several years. The most vocal pro-life advocates that I have come in contact with have always practised what they preach. And it may come as a surprise to many Mumsnetters but not a single one of them was/is a supporter of Trump.
@StuckInABook That I have to say, is extremely rare. Most anti-choicers don't adopt, and don't help out. The most vocal anti-choice advocates do not do a thing to help out. I have witnessed this over 2 decades.
speakout · 08/04/2022 18:34

Freedom of choice is far simpler for me; all the side arguments are distractions in terms of clarifying a woman's right.
Rape/underage/disability, none of it really matters.

If a woman does not want to continue a pregancy then that is her right.
No matter the circumstances.
Women don't take termination lightly.
Late termination is very rare.
Let's put the decision in the laps of women- this does not need legislation.

Viviennemary · 08/04/2022 18:36

I would imagine they are banning abortion because they think it is unethical to kill an unborn child.

speakout · 08/04/2022 18:39

Viviennemary F
I would imagine they are banning abortion because they think it is unethical to kill an unborn child.

Many of those thinking this way also believe it is OK to murder an adult.

FOJN · 08/04/2022 18:39

It’s completely legal to abort a pregnancy at 40 weeks if the foetus is found to have a disability, including something like a cleft lip which is completely fixable with surgery and after surgery will have no lifelong implication other than a tiny scar.

How many babies are aborted at 40 weeks for cleft palate? It's possible to diagnose cleft palate as early as 13 weeks on a scan. In the UK only 1% of abortions take place after 20 weeks and 0.1% (total 236 in 2020) after 24 weeks. It's misleading to claim this is a significant issue.

Parker231 · 08/04/2022 18:39

@speakout

Freedom of choice is far simpler for me; all the side arguments are distractions in terms of clarifying a woman's right. Rape/underage/disability, none of it really matters.

If a woman does not want to continue a pregancy then that is her right.
No matter the circumstances.
Women don't take termination lightly.
Late termination is very rare.
Let's put the decision in the laps of women- this does not need legislation.

100% agree - it’s the woman’s choice and only her choice. Nothing to with anyone else.

Why should any woman have to continue with an unwanted pregnancy.

Dixiechickonhols · 08/04/2022 18:43

@ddl1 very good point. If agenda is all life is sacred then how do they justify the massive differences in infant mortality. I knew some states would be higher but the differences are shocking.
www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/infant_mortality_rates/infant_mortality.htm

iloveeverykindofcat · 08/04/2022 18:46

@speakout Another way to put it is this: if a child needs a kidney to live, should its biological mother be legally compelled to donate the kidney? Unless you agree with this, you afford the fetus more rights than an actual living person. In my opinion - and I think, most other people's - no-one should be legally obliged to donate the use of their body to support another person's life. They might well want to, particularly if its their own child, but I'm pretty damn sure it shouldn't a legal requirement.

Dixiechickonhols · 08/04/2022 18:49

FOJN Yes definitely. The only statistic I could find was 2018 and 2 tfmr for cleft palate post 24 weeks but that’s with 2 Drs certifying severely handicapped so must have been severe or other conditions too.

LethargeMarg · 08/04/2022 19:02

It's actually quite surprising how many people still are anti abortion. I'm on a nursing course and abortion is the only medical procedure you can refuse to carry out as a nurse and a lot of my course mates were saying comments such as ' but what if it's rape?' As in that would be the only acceptable reason to have an abortion ....these are the 'woke' generation in there 20s . I was quite shocked that it's still seen as so terrible. I do think the USA is particularly divided - you've got evangelical Christians vs the very 'right on' liberals and little middle ground

speakout · 08/04/2022 19:06

FOJN

Exactly.
Al these anecdotal stories have little basis in fact.
The pro life ( that's a joke ) brigade would have us think that given free reign women ( because of their wooly thinking and fliberty gibbet natures) would use late abotions as a method of birth control on a whim.
Because women are too dumb and whimsical to think things out on their own.
So we need men to make laws which control women's bodies and reproductive rights.
It is fucking appaling.

Women would prefer noot to have terminations- but life is sometimes messy, and safe procedures are needed.
Women don't have late terminations, only a rsmall number in the UK- but even if they want to have them that should remain their right.
The rights of a foetus does not trump the rights of a woman.

Brefugee · 08/04/2022 19:08

I have not read the full thread but there is some misinformation that I've noticed and feel the need to refute. The main one is that pro-life people (or anti abortion, if you prefer) don't support the mother and child after birth or adopt the babies. That couldn't be further from the truth in my experience; I know a pro-life doctor and his wife who have adopt 7 children, all who have medical issues, a senior woman who has spent her entire free time for over 3 decades offering support and financial assistance to women who have changed their minds about having an abortion

so that's what.... 20 kids. Out of how many living in poverty?

Abortion should be legal, rare and safe. It should be as early as requested and as late as needed. If you're anti-abortion don't get one, but bodily autonomy is the very least women deserve.

As for all the eugenics talk above? No. Have you seen how difficult life is for disabled people? worse for profoundly disabled people. And you want someone to bring a disabled child into the world because... why? you want them to suffer? and after the parents die and the disabled child (now adult) has to go into an instution? I wouldn't wish that on anyone, and i am very happy with my pro-choice stance.

(and yes, there should be a LOT more support for the disabled, for children in poverty etc etc, we don't do enough by a long way for those already born without adding to their numbers)

jeannie46 · 08/04/2022 19:13

@Rewis

What I don't understand is how you can be anti-choise, anti-sex ed and anti-welfare state at the same time. Let's not educate our children and then when they get pregnant they can't have abortions or get any help from government and will be covered in debt from the childbirth they didn't want.
It all hangs together as a method of keeping women and especially poorer women , in a state of uncertainty, apprehension, anxiety, poverty etc etc.

It serves the interests of the rich exploiters who flourish because of this by lending money at 2,000+ % pa, making women desperate to take any , however poorly paid, work, unable to protest through fear of losing their jobs.

LethargeMarg · 08/04/2022 19:15

@Lasagnethyme

They see it as protecting (unborn) women and children's rights, the same reason they are gender critical/anti-trans.
Eg?? You've lost me here.
FOJN · 08/04/2022 19:17

Women don't have late terminations, only a rsmall number in the UK- but even if they want to have them that should remain their right.

I don't know if we use to gather data but one source for abortions after 24 weeks was from women in NI. It would take time to make arrangements for them to travel to Liverpool after they had received devastating news about their baby having disabilities so severe they were incompatible with life lasting more than a few hours. It makes me angry when people think women would wait until a baby is nearly full term to abort just because they can. The stories of women from Northern Ireland having to wait until 27-28 weeks were heartbreaking.

iCouldSleepForAYear · 08/04/2022 19:18

They're changing laws now because they know it will likely go through local courts, state courts, federal courts, etc., and then end up being argued in front of the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court is now stacked in such a way that the justices could very well overturn Roe v Wade (which is the case that set the precedent for allowing abortion and restricted individual states from banning it... argument was based on individual right to privacy IIRC).

Why do people want to ban it? Complicated to explain to a secular British audience.

Religion is still very much a part of public life in the United States. I grew up in Massachusetts, which a lot of people consider to be a turbo-progressive place. But I was raised by a Christian mom and agnostic-ish dad. Mom took us to church every Sunday, we went to Sunday school as young children, and as teenagers we went to weekly church youth groups to talk even more about Jesus. Many of my friends and family growing up were Catholic and had CCD during the week, church, and if it was a first communion or confirmation year, additional church stuff to prepare for that.

Go further south, to places like the Carolinas, Texas, Alabama, and you'll literally see a church on every street corner.

When prayer was banned in schools, on the grounds of separation of church and state, that was controversial, and some people are still bitter about that. The pledge of allegiance still says "one nation, Under God". The money is printed with the phrase "in God we trust". The president closes every address with "And God bless America".

It is still considered socially awkward, in a lot of parts of America (and consider the size of America vs Great Britain) to say you don't believe in God, and think the stories in the Bible are myths.

So... still lots of religion informing public life.

There are many, many people who are straight up raised to understand that abortion is murder. They're told that women who seek abortions are irresponsible and selfish. They're told that women who don't want to raise children can just give them up for adoption.

Adoption is treated more commercially in the States. Sometimes, it's through the state foster care system. But there are also charities coordinating adoptions between families (usually well to do) and birth mothers (often very young women). It really can come across as though you're buying a baby. Look at the movie Juno as a reference; it's satire, but not that far off the mark.

The trauma of childbirth is not discussed. I didn't learn about vaginal tearing until I was in my early 20s, and I read about it on an Internet forum. I didn't know a C-section wound could hurt so bad you couldn't sit up until I was an adult: C-sections were described as something you could just get if you didn't want to experience labour pains. I didn't know all the different risks being pregnant can raise until I was an adult and pregnant with my own babies.

The bond a pregnant woman can develop with a baby (or lack of bond) isn't discussed. The trauma a child can experience having been adopted isn't discussed.

There are states that still limit sex education to a discussion about abstinence and STDs. Sex in some places is still treated as a sin unless you're married, rather than a perfectly normal urge to have.

So that's some of the context of white American pro-lifers. As far as I understand them, anyway.

That context has been exploited by the Republican Party to gain power and votes since Ronald Reagan was president (moral majority).

CaptSkippy · 08/04/2022 19:23

Petty men and their petty politics want women at their disposal as mummy bang-maids.

If we don't get to make our own medical decisions and are economically disadvantaged, we have no choice but to partner up with with man, any man, for our survival and that of our children.

huniepop · 08/04/2022 19:25

@speakout

*Viviennemary F I would imagine they are banning abortion because they think it is unethical to kill an unborn child.*

Many of those thinking this way also believe it is OK to murder an adult.

A bad person (typically murderer). I don't get why people compare the two- you can be anti-abortion and pro death penalty or any combination of opinions. Again, people oppose execution often for practical reasons (people being falsely accused). A separate issue.
iCouldSleepForAYear · 08/04/2022 19:26

The pro lifers have been fighting for this for a long time. They don't care if rich people go abroad to get abortions, they just don't want them being performed here. They don't care if people are too poor to raise children. They definitely don't care if pregnancy and birth traumatises a woman and child for the rest of their lives.

They are myopically focused on Getting Their Way. The reason Donald Trump won the presidency was because he promised to nominate justices who would overturn Roe v Wade, and that mattered more to them than anything else.

It's fascism, basically.

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 08/04/2022 19:27

There's a huge crossover between anti-trans and pro-life in US states banning abortion

That's as may be. Bigots gonna bigot. But rad fems and GC women are neither anti-trans nor are they generally anti-choice. They are pro women.

speakout · 08/04/2022 19:28

LethargeMarg

You don't see the dichotomy of being pro life and supporting murder?