Next time I go to France I'm wearing a headscarf

[LaurieFairyCake]

And I want every woman of faith (any faith) or no faith to do the same if that fucker wins

(Marine le Bastard is saying women are not allowed to wear head scarves in France and that they will be fined)

Years ago, in Dubai, I attended an educational lunch to explain Islam to a Western audience at the behest of my sister who was responsible for professional relocations for a big 4 accountant. The male and female lecturers were both very smooth, sophisticated and accomplished, and knew they were going to encounter all the above arguments. One resonated with me: Why put women at the back/separate them? asked an American woman. "So men cannot be distracted by lust" the lecturer replied. "if one is kneeling in prayer, a beautiful bottom in front is a distraction."

And as long as men are lustful, this remains to me the only respectful, irrefutable reason. Women do not force themselves on men sexually; sadly the reverse is not true.

Why are you putting the onus on women as a group? I'd be more impressed by blokes showing some practical solidarity.

Agreed. Imagine if all the muslim and non-muslim men in France started wearing veils.

That would confuse everyone!

@KimikosNightmare the fact that we no longer follow those laws in most of Western Europe doesn’t mean that those laws are any different to those of the Quran. Let me give you a quote:

Clement of Alexandria:
“ Let the woman observe this, further. Let her be entirely covered, unless she happen to be at home. For that style of dress is grave, and protects from being gazed at. And she will never fall, who puts before her eyes modesty, and her shawl; nor will she invite another to fall into sin by uncovering her face”

And then there is lovely St Paul, misogynist as ever, who felt men should never cover their heads as they were only subordinate to God, but women should always cover their heads as they were primarily subordinate to men, and then God.

These laws were exactly the same in tone and intention as the Quranic laws, it’s just that we’ve mostly just dropped them over the past hundred years. There are plenty of Christian sects which still follow them, look at the Mennonites.

[quote Haj2020]@battenbergdowntheHatches except in islam you're not allowed to be forced to marry. . If a women or man doesn't consent then the marriage is invalid. And if someone has forced them they should fear Allah out creator as women have such a high status in islam to go against her rights is a big sin.[/quote]
Most modern issues with Islam have nothing to do with what the Quran actually says and everything to do with misogynistic 'scholarly interpretations'.

They forget that Aisha (the favourite of the Prophet pbuh) was a scholar and stateswoman, and that she rode into battle.
They also conveniently forget that Islam was meant to be a religion of scholars, scientists, explorers.

But France is the land of milk and honey according to Mumsnet.

What with this and a pro Boris thread the other day I have come to the conclusion Russia has finally taken over Mumsnet

Yeah it'd be great if all men decided to wear a headscarf too in solidarity

But we don't need them, we have our common woman experience - and we can do it for ourselves

Women have driven all social change for equality

I don't agree that women are responsible for mens lust (obviously) or that wearing a headscarf protects them - but I'm wearing one when I go to France just like the Dutch wore Jewish stars during world war 2

Even if you think headscarf wearing is oppressive change should be inclusive - you have to genuinely bring people on board nor institute oppressive and divisive Islamophobia designed to whip up hatred

And as long as men are lustful, this remains to me the only respectful, irrefutable reason. Women do not force themselves on men sexually; sadly the reverse is not true.

So reward the bad behaviour and punish the good?

"So men cannot be distracted by lust" the lecturer replied. "if one is kneeling in prayer, a beautiful bottom in front is a distraction."

Are you saying that women are not distracted by lust? That they do not find men's bodies attractive? Or is it perhaps that we have been socialized to keep it to ourselves?

Having lived in a country where such attitudes about women's modesty prevailed, I can tell you that women covering up their bodies doesn't stop the "lust". It just makes it worse for the women who don't.

@OMG12, you are not reading widely enough across MN!

@converseandjeans

I think France has always been a secular country - it's forbidden to wear anything religious in work or at school. So you can't wear a cross for example. Schools aren't allowed to celebrate anything religious.

www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/coming-to-france/france-facts/secularism-and-religious-freedom-in-france-63815/article/secularism-and-religious-freedom-in-france

Not saying it's OK but the law banning wearing religious clothing goes back a while, so it's not necessarily something that has been brought in to be anti-Muslim.

I guess the issue is that the population has changed and the laws have stayed the same.

I think it will cause problems in society if Le Pen gets into power.

This.

I think the difference is that most women, even driven by lust, lack the physical strength to overpower a man so there's less likelihood of rape. Of course women can feel lust, and should, if reproduction is to continue!

@Swayingpalmtrees

I thought we supported women leading major nations? I am sure in reality she won't be anywhere near as controversial as she says she will be, and Macron is a slimy weasel - I would do almost anything to see him turfed out.

Who is ‘we’? You have to be kidding surely? You’d support her just because she’s female? Christ.

@ohleboulot yes I remember that - wasn’t in France then but my Mum was French and I remember her getting angry about JMLP and trying to explain it to me and DB.

I totally agree with secularism and I don’t think that’s ever going away in France, it’s one of the main principles of the country. A poster above, can’t remember who, said it was tripe, I found that quite offensive tbh.

I don’t know what I’d do if Marine Le Pen won. My DC are half Algerian and I wouldn’t want them growing up in a country where the majority wants RN in power.

@Alexandra2001 thank you for being understanding and seeing we are not all oppressed as social media or ignorant may so.. as always bad and good people in every religion but for some reason it's always islam that is picked on. I can hand on my heart say I love my religion coming from a family of more than 6 siblings none of us wore forced to wear hijab. Neither have any of my 10 nieces.
(Yes my family is big) and just incase anyone says who pays for us we all work. I have a son and daughter both who are treated equally.

@NoraLuka

I was twelve and had just moved to France. I can remember the neighbors wife crying. And people handing out soap outside polling offices so people could symbolically wash their hands of having to take the lapen paper slip.

On a lighter note I was just learning French and can remember a friend telling me her left wing mother had voted for Chirac "les mains au cou" and understanding "le main au cul" - took me ages to figure out what she actually meant...

@Foreignmumof2

What annoys me a lot is that plenty of westerners want to generalise and state they wish the hijab would be banned altogether under the guise of wanting to help oppressed women.

If you genuinely cared, you would do research and try to find actual ways to help those that have been forced to wear one vs take the choice away from all Muslim women to practise part of their faith. Because the suggestion to ban the hijab altogether is again policing women on what they can:can’t wear.

It just comes across very hypocrite and islamophobic to me.

Completely agree. Whenever threads like this pop up it always reminds me of how little people actually know about Islam beyond a narrative that's been force fed to people via the media.

The Iran comparison is a red herring. Iran is an oppressive regime because they've chosen to be one, not because it's dictated to them by Islam. It's really odd to use them as a benchmark for how oppressive Islam is, Muslims are not a monolith.

I also find the idea that Muslim women only cover their heads because they've been brainwashed since birth wildly patronising. Are we really suggesting that any Muslim women who chooses to wear a hijab does not have any agency at all? That's certainly not been my experience of engaging with Muslim women.

As an aside- hijab isn't just about women wearing head coverings. Men should behave accordingly, whatever women are wearing, according to Islam. If they see a woman, they are commanded to avert their gaze.

There is an interning YouTube talk here, if anyone is interested in the thoughts of an actual Muslim woman:

I think the difference is that most women, even driven by lust, lack the physical strength to overpower a man so there's less likelihood of rape. Of course women can feel lust, and should, if reproduction is to continue!

If that's really the case, shouldn't men be kept out of the mosques entirely so women can get on with the business of praying without worry about being preyed upon?

[quote ohleboulot]@Cherrysoup

Marine Le Pen is historically antisemitic. She did not condemn her father for years.

www.huffingtonpost.fr/dominique-sopo/marine-le-pen-antisemitisme-vel-dhiv_a_22035438/

She has an interesting library too[/quote]
Là où le père avait déployé des efforts vains, la fille, depuis quelques années, a pourtant trouvé une complaisance à l'auto-récit de son refus de l'antisémitisme, qui ne semblait pourtant pas la gêner durant toutes les années où elle fut la première défenseure d'un père aux propos largement analysés à juste titre comme immondes.

Is that not her passively failing to condemn her father rather than actively being anti-Semitic? I’d like to be educated on this, I’m not in any way attempting to defend her. I remember the large number of votes her father received in the first round-18% I believe-back in the day and how horrified we all were.

I also find the idea that Muslim women only cover their heads because they've been brainwashed since birth wildly patronising. Are we really suggesting that any Muslim women who chooses to wear a hijab does not have any agency at all? That's certainly not been my experience of engaging with Muslim women.

We're all affected by culture. We are all brainwashed to a certain extent. Just to do different things.

So men cannot be distracted by lust" the lecturer replied. "if one is kneeling in prayer, a beautiful bottom in front is a distraction."
And as long as men are lustful, this remains to me the only respectful, irrefutable reason. Women do not force themselves on men sexually; sadly the reverse is not true.

Well the obvious answer to a man who's feels he's going to be overcome with lust at such a sight is to put his eyes out, rather than get every potential victim to change. Or if that's too harsh, a blindfold he can't remove.

Someone who is liable to experience such 'unstoppable ' lust clearly doesn't have sufficient capacity to function as an adult. That being so, why are men subscribing to that view allowed at least equal rights to the part of the population not so afflicted- ie women- and in fact have rights over them? Surely it should be the level-headed women who rule lust-addled men?

And yes, of course it's bollix. The London Marathon has thousands of women who aren't just showing a bit of keratin, but most of their legs/arms/torso, and in many cases wearing pretty much a bikini. It must be an absolute cess of rapine, or at the very least men wobbling off course and collapsing with throbbing erections rather than finishing the race. Amazing how no-one has ever noticed this going on

[quote ScrollingLeaves]@EnidSpyton

ScrollingLeaves
Not all Muslim women wear head scarves because they have to. I am not a Muslim and I don’t know the numbers of women who would say they are choosing this against those who feel they must, but remember that Nadya (the talented cook who won Bake Off) said she had chosen to as a young teen.

And why do you think they have 'chosen' to?

Because they've been brainwashed by their patriarchal religion since birth.

As someone who grew up in an evangelical Christian family and escaped as an adult, trust me, I know of what I speak.

I am sorry for your awful experience.

Personally, I don’t see why they are considered more ‘brainwashed’ than girls who think they need pneumatic breasts and fish -pout lips to be acceptable to men in general secular society.[/quote]
Or the women (most of us) who have been taught to cover our breasts, because men have sexualised them, and to show them is inappropriate and immodest. And while there are women who would argue for their right to go topless if they wished, far fewer would support a law that banned women from wearing a top.

Well at least le pen knows what a woman is

@Kreuzberg

Well at least le pen knows what a woman is

True!!!

Also can people defending Islam , for the uneducated in said religion, like myself , please bring up something more modern than 100 plus years ago;. It really doesn't seem impressive. Maybe an example of a modern happy Islamic democratic country?

crickets