Next time I go to France I'm wearing a headscarf

[LaurieFairyCake]

And I want every woman of faith (any faith) or no faith to do the same if that fucker wins

(Marine le Bastard is saying women are not allowed to wear head scarves in France and that they will be fined)

I’m just unclear what part of practising the faith means SOME must cover up, if men did exactly the same covering then you could argue it’s for religious reasons, however when the other half of the exact same religion don’t cover themselves up in the same way, it’s really just mysogyny and control dressed up as a religion .

@EnidSpyton

ScrollingLeaves
Not all Muslim women wear head scarves because they have to. I am not a Muslim and I don’t know the numbers of women who would say they are choosing this against those who feel they must, but remember that Nadya (the talented cook who won Bake Off) said she had chosen to as a young teen.

And why do you think they have 'chosen' to?

Because they've been brainwashed by their patriarchal religion since birth.

As someone who grew up in an evangelical Christian family and escaped as an adult, trust me, I know of what I speak.

I am sorry for your awful experience.

Personally, I don’t see why they are considered more ‘brainwashed’ than girls who think they need pneumatic breasts and fish -pout lips to be acceptable to men in general secular society.

I DO wear the head scarf and it's absolutely my choice. I would never go to France again (despite family living there) if this came into action. I decided to wear it of my own accord at the age of 22 without the knowledge of my family beforehand. I was single and it was something deeply personal to me and something I researched/thought about for about a year before deciding to. It was so natural to me and it felt right. I chose it. People were suprised at first, however fully supportive of my own personal decision to wear it. Had the odd comment at work 'oh did your dad force you?' Which is actually laughable if you knew him. It's a FREEDOM OF CHOICE which means if you dont want to wear it, you don't. And if you do, you can. How am I offending you by deciding to cover my hair? It's my body autonomy to decide what people see. Anyway will be muting this thread after posting as I can just imagine the MNs racists coming out of the woodwork.

Personally, I don’t see why they are considered more ‘brainwashed’ than girls who think they need pneumatic breasts and fish -pout lips to be acceptable to men in general secular society.

I think if pneumatic breasts and cosmetic surgery were banned in the UK, the backlash wouldn't be coming from Mumsnet. Posters are always complaining of the pressure put on women to look beautiful.

The pressure to cover up your beauty and the pressure to show off your beauty = two sides of the same coin.

Getting rid of macron is a winner Getting rid of burka style headwear is liberating often its not the women who want to wear it it is their male dominated culture that makes them do so.

@alwaysontheloo

You sound batshit Laurie.

The covering of hair/veils/burkas are oppressive tools for a faith that treats women like second class citizens.
France is a country where no religious symbols are allowed - of any faith. Surely that's a fair, level playing field so I'm not sure why you feel the Muslim faith gets special dispensation

Really? No religious symbols are allowed in public anywhere in France? So if a Christian wears a crucifix necklace or a Jewish man wears a skullcap in public they get fined?

I'm French and I don't think Marine Le Pen will win, but she's likely to get through to the second round. I remember when her father, who has similar ideas to her, got through to the second round in 2002 (I think!) and it was seen as a shocking thing and there were massive demonstrations in the streets with placards saying "Vote for the crook not the facist" from people who hated the other candidate but hated Le Pen more. It's seen as normal that she gets to the second round now, I don't know how much of that is because her party has changed or because society has.

FWIW, I would never, ever, wear a headscarf and didn't for the whole 11 years I was married to exH, who is a practicing Muslim with a headscarf-wearing mother and sisters. That said, I would also never, ever, vote for Le Pen or anyone else who has the racist views, nor for anyone who wants to dictate what women can wear. If there are any women being forced to wear headscarves, they should be helped to get into a position where they are free to make their own choices with access to jobs, education, etc.

WRT the secular schools thing, I think that's been the case since 1905, it was originally meant to limit Catholic influence in schools, it didn't start out as an anti-Muslim thing. There are private schools (not expensive like in the UK) which aren't secular.

@godmum56

I wonder what they do about Nuns and private schools?

Nuns won't be affected, just like the bellends here who complain about women covering their head. They don't object to nuns, just brown women.

It is a French election and it is only the business of French voters to decide which issues they think are important and which politician represents them. France is a European Catholic Christian secular nation in which religion is explicitly a matter for private life, with a significant Islamic/Muslim minority which wants to bring its repressive customs from the Maghreb.

Please don't tell me I am deluded... I spent five summers in the Gard where these tensions run highest. Le Pen will win in most of southern France where these issues are being played out every day.

I agree with @EnidSpryton. Religion, religious practices and customs are in the modern world at best irrelevant and at worst dangerous because they emphasise difference rather than cohesion.

I was going to write a long post about why Le Pen as president would be a terrible thing for France but I don't have time to list the 101 reasons.
I have been very proud to have Macron as my president for the past 5 years. I will be voting for him on Sunday.

@AngelinaFibres

godmum56
I wonder what they do about Nuns and private schools?

Nuns don't wear headscarves

What do you mean? They do.

@JellybeansJelly

Yes, let’s continue telling women what they can and can’t do…

Those who agree with the ban are as bad as those who force women to wear them. You’re still deciding what other women can and should do.

Totally agree JellybeansJelly!

@BlackLambAndGreyFalcon

I support women's rights to wear what they choose, but I will not cover my hair myself.

Exactly. Many women do not wear those headscarfs voluntarily. They often yield to peer pressure or are outright told by family members or a partner to wear that.

I consider this akin to the kind of pressure many young are under to be sexy in western nations.

Neither is a free choice.

@Foreignmumof2

So wearing a head covering as a women is rooted in patriarchy now?

But Sikh men covering their hair is fine?

Absolutely the case.

Quote-
In the Qur’an women are admonished to cover their heads and to pull their coverings over their bosoms. However the style and degree of veil varies according to the situation. The veil affords women modesty, respect and dignity and protects herself from harm and the evils of society by covering her beauty.

In Chapter 33, verse 60 of the Holy Qur’an Allah says :

‘O Prophet! tell your wives and your daughters, and the women of the believers, that they should pull down upon them of their outer cloaks from their heads over their faces. That is more likely that they may thus be recognised and not molested. And Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.’

Ie women need to cover up to reduce the evil caused by men - if all women covered up men would be able to control themselves - that’s the line and mantra for women.

You are raped - your fault. Poor men can’t control themselves. Cover you hair, although the Quran actually says cover your faces - obliterate women tell them it’s a sign of female power and a blessing for them - mark their faces out of recognition, make them conform, blame them if they don’t. A woman gets raped all her fault for having her ‘beauty’ on display - then force her to marry her rapist or eliminate her for loose morals.

They are ugly parts of the bible, Quran and most ‘scared books’ - doesn’t mean men don’t seek to control women.

I’m not anti any religion but seek the bigger answers. Make up is not empowering when women are judged by how much they wear, if they don’t etc or conforming to a man’s view of beauty.

High heels are not empowering if you have to wear they to be empowered or seem elegant etc

Mens suits reasonable comfortable and easy to wear and manage and shoes comfy and easy to walk in. Womens suits tailored to show off their bosoms and bums and finished with a pair of impractical heels. Etc god forbid if she wears the same suit a week in a row and changes her blouse, but he can do what he likes.

Anyway I digress - freedom is not the same as expectation, indoctrination or coercion because of feeling to need to cover your face to either 1. Show respect 2. Receive respect or 3. Deserve respect

All of those things should happen to all women the issue being that if women don’t cover they are regarding to be disrespectful.

And yes, I heard a prominent local Islamic scholar telling a 15 year she would be raped and deserve it if she went out (U.K.) without her brother and without a head covering. The same wasn’t said to the brother.

I agree with freedom but this isn’t as simple as saying a headscarf should be illegal or legal. It’s a small part of a wider issue. Some woman choose to wear it but why and for whom is the bigger question and what happens to them if they choose not to.

Can you be a Muslim and not wear a covering? Some say yes, some say no. But the bottom line men brought it in to control the women it wasn’t a choice originally.

A woman standing up against oppression?

If the real concern is women being pressured or forced into covering up in the name of religion, as some have suggested, why can't governments legislate specifically against that?

If a country can legislate against other crimes that target women (discrimination, sexual harassment FGM, forced marriage and so on), why can't forcing women to dress in a particular way be against the law? Why can't the law target those men who control women in the name of religion, instead of making abused women criminals?

Oh course we know why. 1. It's not really about the welfare of women and their right to choose how they live their lives. At best it comes from a misogynistic belief that no woman would ever choose to willingly wear something or not wear something themselves (because women are thick, right, and don't know their own minds?). Or 2. it's that we can't possibly insist on men complying with the law: women are the easier target, so let's aim the ire at them. Or 3. It's hatred of Muslims masquerading as concern for women.

It would be nice if religion, governments and controlling men in general could just let women live in peace.

But Sikh men covering their hair is fine?

This is not rooted in matriarchy which is the difference.

I can buy halal meat in my local supermarket. It was on offer yesterday 🤨 . Not many Jewish people around here, but where my sil lives there are more and the supermarkets stock kosher food. Don’t know where pp got the idea that halal and kosher are illegal. However state schools can’t serve halal or kosher meals, as they are secular. They also don’t do fish on a Friday, unlike private schools.

@Franklyfrost

If I was running a country I would consider banning head scarves as a symbolic gesture because they are strongly connected to a culture of oppressing, controlling and shaming women. To be a truest secular state is an ideal which many French people consider a more important than not repressing women who chose to wear a headscarf as an indicator of their faith. Lots of Jewish women cover their heads without demonstrating their faith to others.

My religion is neither oppressive or controlling. It’s what the West has been trying to brainwash you with. My religion offers women so many right that you only got in the last hundred years. “Paradise lies at your mothers feet” “Who has the most right over me, your mother, and then, your mother and then your mother and then your father.” We had rights to property, business, divorce and inheritance way before women in the so called “West” did. I’ve been covering my hair as a sign of obedience to God and as a sign of being a Muslim woman. I have many Muslim friends and never known any of them to be forced to wear a headscarf. In fact half of my family don’t wear it it’s fine as long as they are happy.

@Frenchfancy

I was going to write a long post about why Le Pen as president would be a terrible thing for France but I don't have time to list the 101 reasons. I have been very proud to have Macron as my president for the past 5 years. I will be voting for him on Sunday.

Macron is a arrogant narcissist who has lied about many things. I can think of 101 reasons I definitely won't be voting for him. But then I don't inform myself with TF1 News 🙂

I'm having visions of Hermes hijabs. [Two finger emoticon].

@Swayingpalmtrees

You are missing the bigger picture laurie with respect, France are trying to liberate women in the sense that many DO NOT have the choice not to wear them. They are forced to by their family and by their husbands. It is a strong line, but it is one they have chosen.

"France are trying to liberate women"

How patronising.

Maybe we should try to liberate French women?

In my experience, it is still quite a sexist country in some ways, with attitudes towards women that wouldn't be tolerated here. Look at how they indulge the likes of Roman Polanski for example.

All religions oppress women. Religion is borne of misogyny.

No-one has the right to tell a woman what she should or shouldn't wear!