Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Ukraine Invasion: Part 19

999 replies

MagicFox · 06/04/2022 20:38

Welcome friends, still going

OP posts:
Thread gallery
39
DGRossetti · 07/04/2022 14:47

Looks like a criticism of other countries for STILL not going far enough on kicking out excess russian diplomats.

You can't feed them false information or waste their time so easily if you kick them out.

Oh dear, have I just given Putin another worry ? Damn. I need to be so much more careful in thinking out loud.

There was a reason the British called their spy department "XX" during the war. And it had nothing to do with Roman numerals.

RedToothBrush · 07/04/2022 14:52

Some time scales:

Andrew deGrandpré @adegrandpre
Updated: Pentagon says that, on average, it's taking 4 days to ship weapons to pass-off points outside Ukraine + another 1-2 days for those shipments to enter the country.

Such transfers have “never been done that fast before”

Plus add transit time WITHIN Ukraine to front lines. 10 days is probably fairly optimistic.

RedToothBrush · 07/04/2022 14:54

Also:

Hromadske Int. @Hromadske 9hrs ago
Polish President Andrzej Duda has agreed that Russia's war against Ukraine is genocide. He thinks the goal of a full-scale Russian invasion is the destruction of the Ukrainian nation

DGRossetti · 07/04/2022 14:55

@RedToothBrush

Some time scales:

Andrew deGrandpré @adegrandpre
Updated: Pentagon says that, on average, it's taking 4 days to ship weapons to pass-off points outside Ukraine + another 1-2 days for those shipments to enter the country.

Such transfers have “never been done that fast before”

Plus add transit time WITHIN Ukraine to front lines. 10 days is probably fairly optimistic.

I was faintly amused to hear Evan Davies on PM trying to get the Czechian MP to disclose quite how tanks were getting from Czechia to Ukraine, since there is no direct border. The MPs words were "I can't discuss that information", but his tone was you fucking what ?
Alexandra2001 · 07/04/2022 14:58

Nick Archer @NickArcherFCDO* (British Ambassador to Czech Rep)
Now would be a good time for more countries to move to "parity" like UK and Czech Rep?*

UK Govt criticising European countries... now what a surprise!

Maybe before doing that, the UK look at how hard it is to get a Ukrainian refugee into UK, we have given up.. the time scales are ridiculous... its a fuckin joke, a policy designed to keep people out, whilst making us look good.

Ijsbear · 07/04/2022 15:25

twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1512066650564337675

This map of Mariupol was retweeted by Oryx so hopefully it's considered reliable. If it is is shows an astonishingly large area that's still uninfested by Russians.

RedToothBrush · 07/04/2022 15:32

Eugene Finkel @eugene_finkel (4 April)
As a genocide scholar I am an empiricist, I usually dismiss rhetoric. I also take genocide claims with a truckload of salt because activists apply it almost everywhere now.

Not now. There are actions, there is intent. It's as genocide as it gets. Pure, simple and for all to see

Got questions about why I think it is genocide. Until this morning I resisted applying the term. War crimes? Sure. Heinous rhetoric? You bet. What changed is the combination of more and more evidence, from different places, and even more importantly, explicit official rhetoric

The official legal definition of genocide is "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such". When I teach genocide I start by saying that this definition has huge problems because it doesn't give us clear thresholds (what "in part" does even mean?) and because it is almost impossible to prove intent. People who carry out genocide are usually not idiots, if there are orders at all they would be given orally.

But, several things are important to realize. First, something that doesn't start as genocide might evolve into one when conditions change. Russian invasion, in my view, did not start with clear genocidal intent, but evolved into one. Regime change and colonial subjugation are by themselves not enough to constitute genocide.

Second, more evidence that Bucha is not an exception. Each massacre might be local initiative, together they are a campaign. And most importantly, the RIA Novosti (a state outlet) piece is one of the most explicit statements of intent to destroy a national group as such that I've ever seen

I know Russian. I have read a lot of Russian nationalist rhetoric in my life. This is not some wild intellectual fantasy, it is a clear, actionable statement of intent by a state agency. The UN definition is problematic, but in this case it fits like a glove

And a counter argument:

Jonathan Leader Maynard @jleadermaynard (4 April)
Is Russia committing genocide in Ukraine? I don’t claim to be a Russia-expert, but I am a scholar of genocide, mass killing, and atrocity crimes. So here’s a shortish thread

While it is unsurprising that @ZelenskyyUa would highlight Russian atrocities by calling them genocide, it’s too early to reach clear conclusions here. We basically know that Russia is committing atrocities in Ukraine, but the conditions for genocide are quite specific.

As stated in the Genocide Convention, genocide does not require an effort to wipe out an entire group, but it inivolves more that the killing of civilians or the perpetration of atrocities like rape, torture, mutilation etc. These could be genocidal acts but often aren’t.

Whether they are genocidal depends on their strategic intent: was this an effort to eliminate groups on the basis of their ethnicity, nationality etc. It’s extremely hard to get good data on the shape of – let alone the intent behind – such campaigns during ongoing conflict.

For mass killings in Guatemalan in 1978-83, for e.g., scholars still debate whether the violence was or was not genocidal (I think it was, but in a complex way – check out the work of Roddy Brett, Jennifer Schirmer, Virginia Garrard-Burnett, Manolo Vela Castañeda etc).

In Ukraine, we effectively know that Russia is committing serious abuses that directly target civilians, including cases of direct killings and rape. These are almost certainly war crimes.

Reporting is fragmentary at present: so the number of victims is likely much higher than cases we can currently confirm. This is unsurprising on three counts.

First, the Russian military’s past targeting of civilians in Chechnya and Syria (and earlier, Afghanistan).

Second, the Kremlin is now wrapped in a hardline ultranationalist ideology that sees a West-leaning Ukrainian state as an existential political and ideological threat to Russia (contrary to the longstanding myth that Putin is ‘unideological’).

Third, the fact that Russia’s war-effort has degenerated into a stagnant campaign in which conventional tactics have failed to achieve Putin’s aims, while the Ukrainian population organizes effective resistance – a classic scenario for atrocities.

Note that the common assertion that abuses against civilians are ‘inevitable’ in war is totally false. States have been found to directly target civilians in roughly 1/5 to 1/3 of all wars. Atrocities are appalling but not inevitable.

Moreover, for those tempted by whataboutery, I’d stress that while the American- and UK-led wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were appallingly stupid and destructive, they did not involve targeted killings of civilians of this kind (though the Vietnam War did).

We also have initial reports of the Russian army moving mobile crematoria into Ukraine – but I haven’t seen verified footage of this yet (video from the UK MoD appears to have been from pre-war).

So it’s almost certain that Russia is committing widespread abuses against civilians in Ukraine, and I would not be surprised if this was ultimately found to constitute mass atrocities – with over 1,000 civilian victims.

^But we lack good enough data at this stage, imo, to conclude that genocide is being committed. The leading NGO @genocide_watch
has not yet declared a genocide alert in the Ukraine. This obviously could change^
www.genocidewatch.com/countries-at-risk

So, we should a) be cautious about resorting to the language of genocide, which has a quite specific legal meaning, but b) highlight the clearest evidence of atrocities against civilians, while being aware of the irrevocable uncertainty of war. We will know more in time.

Both threads are from 3 days ago.

It was followed up by this:

Eugene Finkel @eugene_finkel (16hrs ago)
As expected, my claim that we see a genocide in Ukraine is being contested by several other scholars. That’s normal, that is what scholars do. What is more important is that even those who disagree with me (at least those views that I saw) and think that my genocide claim goes too far, especially given the limited data we have, still believe that at the very least we are talking about atrocity crimes. Put simply, the argument is not about whether Russia does truly horrible things to Ukraine and Ukrainians but which term describes the horror better

I concede the point, we still don’t have that much data. But for me, having years and years of training and experience studying these things also means the ability and the duty to make judgement under uncertainty and with incomplete data. That’s what I did. And once I reached this conclusion and decided that I am comfortable standing by it, there was no other option than saying what I think. Yes, it is good scholarship to wait for more data. But believing that a genocide is happening and waiting for more data before speaking up? No way

Jonathan Leader Maynard @jleadermaynard
Good follow-up thread by @eugene_finkel on the question of whether genocide is occurring in Ukraine. I fully endorse what he says: what is key here is that all serious scholars agree that atrocity crimes are underway in Ukraine, even if they are not genocidal.

There is also an article by Alex Hinton @AlexLHinton on the subject:
theconversation.com/is-russia-committing-genocide-in-ukraine-a-human-rights-expert-looks-at-the-warning-signs-180017
Is Russia committing genocide in Ukraine? A human rights expert looks at the warning signs

There’s a real threat that Russia will commit genocide in Ukraine. As evidence of war crimes emerges, there is reason to believe it may already be taking place.

and

The field of genocide studies, in which I have long worked, has developed frameworks for assessing the threat of genocide in such volatile situations. These tools, including one used by the U.N., indicate Ukraine is indeed at considerable risk for genocide

Genocide refers to “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.”

These acts involve not just killing people, but seeking to destroy the target group by causing “serious bodily or mental harm,” creating harsh “conditions of life,” preventing births and “forcibly transferring” children to another group.

One predictor for genocide is a history of mass human rights violations and atrocity crimes, including genocide.

Russia has a long history of mass violence against Ukrainians and other groups.

The article goes on to explain actions that Russia has carried out which would be consistent with Genocide.

Seeing the way this is moving I am most definitely with Eugene Finkel.

There is something horrible about genocide scholars standing around ignoring their extensive historical expertise in this field, because they are waiting for the eureka moment of sufficient evidence...

I do think the intent is there. And the more Russia slips into 'Z campaign' thinking and propaganda, the stronger it becomes because there is a clear purpose.

52andblue · 07/04/2022 15:37

I've been thinking of a book called 'Cilka's Journey' (Heather Morris)
It's a story of a woman who was interned in Nazi Germany, liberated by the Red Army, then accused of being a Nazi collaborator (untrue), then interrned by the Russians. Her experiences were unrelentingly horrific - almost unbelievable - but completely true sadly. It's all happening again.

DGRossetti · 07/04/2022 15:40

Ucrainia delenda est.

TargusEasting · 07/04/2022 15:50

@RedToothBrush

Some time scales:

Andrew deGrandpré @adegrandpre
Updated: Pentagon says that, on average, it's taking 4 days to ship weapons to pass-off points outside Ukraine + another 1-2 days for those shipments to enter the country.

Such transfers have “never been done that fast before”

Plus add transit time WITHIN Ukraine to front lines. 10 days is probably fairly optimistic.

The UA will orientate partly to a counter-attack role in the East now and will require a constant flow of arms. The longer the chain is, the greater the chance it will bottleneck from time to time. More will be going on behind the scenes than we shall know, but it is going to be very difficult for the UA to operate efficiently and it is unlikely to operate to full capacity.
RedToothBrush · 07/04/2022 15:54

@Alexandra2001

Nick Archer @NickArcherFCDO* (British Ambassador to Czech Rep) Now would be a good time for more countries to move to "parity" like UK and Czech Rep?*

UK Govt criticising European countries... now what a surprise!

Maybe before doing that, the UK look at how hard it is to get a Ukrainian refugee into UK, we have given up.. the time scales are ridiculous... its a fuckin joke, a policy designed to keep people out, whilst making us look good.

Ambassadors don't tend to criticise in this way tbf. They are civil servants not politicians.

So putting out something that strong probably means they think there is a genuine concern rather than 'getting one over other countries'.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 07/04/2022 15:58

I would be surprised if BND were the only only intelligence service to have this, of course.

The Americans were quite well informed about the invasion, and so it would be logical to expect them to have quite a lot now as we..

Then again, genocide is very serious indeed. I would not want any official to just start throwing accusations like this around, because, how do you walk that back? And intent is so notoriously difficult to prove.

Another thing is indeed the language in the official and semi official Russian statements and the papers and other media. It's very Stalinist, very confrontational, basically heavy duty propaganda. Scary.

Ijsbear · 07/04/2022 15:59

^Trent Telenko
@TrentTelenko
·
3h
Confirmation that Ukrainian helicopters are resupplied Mariupol 👇
Quote Tweet
MilitaryLand.net
@Militarylandnet
· 7h
Presidential adviser O. Arestovych about #Mariupol: We provide direct and indirect support. Our helicopters successfully delivered ammo and evacuated wounded from the city. Our SF units work behind enemy lines, recently damaged a railway connecting Crimea and Melitopol

Ijsbear · 07/04/2022 16:10

Luhansk Oblast governor: No hospital survived in the region.

According to Serhiy Haidai, every health care facility has been shelled and damaged in Luhansk Oblast since Feb. 24. Russian forces attack hospitals deliberately so that the injured people “do not have a chance to survive,” he said

Kyiv Independent.

Also:
external Ukraine's military: After regrouping troops, Russia may attempt to capture Kyiv again.

Oleksandr Hruzevych, deputy chief of staff of Ukraine’s Ground Forces, said that about a third of Russian troops who had been earlier deployed to Belarus were staying. Another third is now being relocated to Ukraine’s east, while the remaining troops were destroyed by the Ukrainian forces, he said. Kyiv Oblast shares a border with Belarus

Seen this in a few places, there seems to be a general view that the Russians may come back to Kyiv.

Also that the Donbass battle is going to be huge Ukraine expects large-scale operations and maneuvers involving thousands of tanks, armored vehicles, aircraft, and artillery.

It sounds like they are expecting almost a pitched battle, which would be a disaster for the Ukrainians? looks at the military folk

RedToothBrush · 07/04/2022 16:25

Paul Ronzheimer @ronzheimer
EXCLUSIVE: We found a couple in Bucha who were being hunted down by Russian soldiers, apparently because relatives are in the army. „Soldiers had lists“, they told us. Russians came to the house six times, shot, threw grenades. Mykhola and Viktoria hid in the attic. @bild

MYKOLA: „I took off my address plate because some friends told me that they have some lists. I don’t know where they got this lists from. They came 6 times for me. My nephew is in the UA army and the sister of my wife is doing her service. They came to arrest me 6 times.

„I was lucky I managed to hide in the attic with my wife. They shot 8 bullets in the door in the gates. Took off the gates and started to shoot in our kitchen. We were on the floor, we crawled and managed to go up to the attic. They broke and crashed everything in the house.“

„They also threw a hand grenade in our cellar they were looking for us for 3 weeks. They came and talked to our neighbours and asked were are these people who live here? We were hiding all the time we lived in the shed. We didn't show our nose outside for 3 weeks.“

„They [the second wave of Russians] moved here on the 6th or 7th of March. The fist wave was more or less OK, They had silver bands on their arms. Then, 4 days later, came other group with red bands and they started to rage. They came for us, they knew my address.“

„They came, pointed with the finger on my address badge and started to shoot. My BMW and my van were shot at. They were looking for us all the time, they were asking our neighbours - Were are they, those people who live here?“

www.bild.de/bild-plus/politik/ausland/politik-ausland/ukraine-krieg-menschenjagd-mit-todeslisten-in-butscha-79701058,view=conversionToLogin.bild.html

RedToothBrush · 07/04/2022 16:40

It sounds like they are expecting almost a pitched battle, which would be a disaster for the Ukrainians?

Definitely expecting a pitched battled...

Not a military expert.

Trent Telelenko was saying how the Ukrainians need to think tactically still and go for the railways and logistics still...

Douglas Herbert @dougf24
“Either you help us now, or your help will come too late,” #Ukraine’s foreign minister tells reporters after meeting with #NATO foreign ministers. He says the battle for Donbass is under way, worse is yet to come and that, unfortunately, “it will remind you of WWII”. #F24 (1/2)

Ukraine’s foreign minister says positions of delegations in Russia-Ukraine talks will be determined by successes on the battlefield or impact of sanctions. He also warns that Bucha massacre is “just the tip of the iceberg.” #F24 (2/2)

Ijsbear · 07/04/2022 16:47

God, I hope the west steps up.

Wonder if the UN will throw Russia off the Human Rights Council, the debate is supposed to be today.

PestorPeston · 07/04/2022 16:48

Apparently the Ukrainians have at least three of these. Which are only illegal if you shoot at civilians, they are fins for legit military targets.
The Ukrainians are willing to accept all donations of weapons.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 19
prettybird · 07/04/2022 16:49

Re the command from above to restrict the Russian soldiers' access to the internet (presumably by taking their phones off them Hmm): I can fully understand sadly the motivation behind that command. While they're in Ukraine, the soldiers would have access to non-state censored media and might realise that they are fighting a war ( not a "Special Military Operation") under false pretences Shock

DuncinToffee · 07/04/2022 16:55

BREAKING: Russia suspended from UN's Human Rights Council (UNHRC).

93 votes in favour, 24 against, 58 abstentions.

Igotjelly · 07/04/2022 16:56

Russia suspended form the Human Rights Council.

CailleachGranda · 07/04/2022 17:00

@DuncinToffee

BREAKING: Russia suspended from UN's Human Rights Council (UNHRC).

93 votes in favour, 24 against, 58 abstentions.

Heard the tail end of some of the speakers and watched the vote.

They're now letting delegates explain why they voted the way they did

Igotjelly · 07/04/2022 17:02

Do we know who voted against?

PestorPeston · 07/04/2022 17:04

How they voted

Ukraine Invasion: Part 19
DuncinToffee · 07/04/2022 17:05

China and Belarus voted against