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Ukraine Invasion: Part 19

999 replies

MagicFox · 06/04/2022 20:38

Welcome friends, still going

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 11/04/2022 21:14

Olga Tokariuk @olgatokariuk
The only source reporting this so far is the Azov regiment. No independent/credible journalists are working in Mariupol now, so very difficult to verify. There were a lot of warnings earlier over Russia's potential use of chemical weapons in Ukraine

Paul D. Shinkman @PDShinkman
I don't have confirmation this was indeed chemical weapons, but several military sources in Ukraine observe to me this report coincides with Gen. Dvornikov taking over as top Russian commander for Ukraine, who has a long history of brutal chemical weapons use, partic. in Syria

Again, no confirmation yet of chemical weapons use in Ukraine.

But Dvornikov is credited partially with turning the proverbial tide for the Assad regime in Syria through a brazen use of weapons like chemicals and against civilian populations.

ScrollingLeaves · 11/04/2022 21:15

ljsbear
About the remaining soldiers in Mariupol: they are still there right now, still doing everything they can. Let us not speak of them as though they are not because that makes the already intolerable conditions worse. Every time one of those remaining resists in any way, or helps some poor civilian in any way, that is still one more achievement by a soldier living one more day, one more hour.

Igotjelly · 11/04/2022 21:16

Creeping into the mainstream media. Oil embargo suggested as a response.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 19
DuncinToffee · 11/04/2022 21:20

The 'Butcher of Syria' appointed by Putin

Gen Dvornikov,who has become the new commander of the Russian invasion in Ukraine,is likely to unleash a new round of war crimes and atrocities against civilians. He has blood on his hands from his involvement in Syria,where he didn't shy away from bombing hospitals or food lines

Alexandra2001 · 11/04/2022 21:23

@Ijsbear

What do you mean by 'act' and what would the wider implications of that be? Ukraine is not a NATO country- it's a hard truth, but isn't that where the red line is?

it was said that chemical attacks would draw a response. If we do not fulfill our word then - our word is worth nothing and every other country on the planet will know that we can be walked over. And Ukraine will be left with yet another broken promise, when promises count.

Do promises mean nothing?

NATO wont do anything.

Not even give enough weapons to protect Odesa from becoming another Mariupol, which even if they did, probably wouldn't be enough, only reopening the Black Sea will do that and NATO/US wont do that.

HappyWinter · 11/04/2022 21:30

For once in my life I'm organised, here's a new thread before we run out:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4527642-Ukraine-Invasion-Part-20

HappyWinter · 11/04/2022 21:31

I hope we have done enough to protect Odesa, another Mariupol would be a nightmare.

Shuuu · 11/04/2022 21:34

I’m struggling to see a way out for Ukraine. If Russia manages to capture key ports & holds on to them in another few years they’ll be back to take more of Ukraine. They’ll just chip away until they have it all. It’s so sad

RedToothBrush · 11/04/2022 21:39

@HappyWinter

I hope we have done enough to protect Odesa, another Mariupol would be a nightmare.
Kharkiv is already getting close...
HappyWinter · 11/04/2022 21:45

@Shuuu

I’m struggling to see a way out for Ukraine. If Russia manages to capture key ports & holds on to them in another few years they’ll be back to take more of Ukraine. They’ll just chip away until they have it all. It’s so sad
I think we have to arm them enough to make sure this doesn't happen.
Ijsbear · 11/04/2022 21:56

@ScrollingLeaves

ljsbear About the remaining soldiers in Mariupol: they are still there right now, still doing everything they can. Let us not speak of them as though they are not because that makes the already intolerable conditions worse. Every time one of those remaining resists in any way, or helps some poor civilian in any way, that is still one more achievement by a soldier living one more day, one more hour.
Yes, you're right. Completely.
RedToothBrush · 11/04/2022 22:11

Phillips P. OBrien @PhillipsPOBrien
Russian loss rates, with the present evidence, are already reaching levels that compare to some of the worst losses of the US Civil War or World War I.

What do we know? According to the US briefing today about 40 out of 130 BTGs have been so thoroughly wrecked that they are not functional and have been withdrawn entirely. This loss rate of approx 30% seems to be mirrored in overall Russian casualties (maybe an underestimate)

The Ukrainians are claiming that 19,500 Russian soldiers have been killed. Other sources have not estimated for a bit. However if about 30% of BTGs have been rendered inoperable, and you include losses in other services (marines, spetznaz, airborne) 19.5k is not a bad baseline

If you simply double the amount of killed to take into account wounded, prisoners, etc, and add together you get almost 60,000 in total, which would be 30% of the original invasion force. This seems all seems plausible. Could be 5K more or less, but lets use that as a comparison.

Compare this to the US Civil War. The general with the highest average casualty rates was none other than Robert E. Lee. His troops suffered around 20% casualties on their campaigns--so the Russians are already far higher than that.

World War I. The Battle of the Somme as a comparison. The British, French and Germans deployed about 3.5 million soldiers combined and lost about 1,050,000 casualties. Guess that rate--30%. So the Russians are already at Battle of Somme casualties.

And the Battle of the Somme lasted more than 3 months (late June through late September 1916) so the losses in this famous battle occurred in twice the time that is has taken the Russians to lose so much.

Now for a World War II comparison--the German Army in the Battle of Kursk, what is often seen as the greatest armor battle in history. While German losses are actually not easy to calculate, by any measures the Russian Army in Ukraine is suffering more losses.

During the 6 weeks of Operation Citadel and the subsequent Soviet counteroffensive the Germans suffered between 160k-200k casualties of the more than 900k soldiers deployed. this is somewhere between 17% and 22%

So Russian losses by historic comparison are massive. Higher than German losses in the Kursk Campaign, higher than Robert E. Lee's campaign average and equal to the Battle of the Somme (in half the time).

In all these cases, the armies were exhausted a needed to cease operations and recover. I would imagine this occurs soon to the Russians. They might have one real effort left in them--but hard to see how they could keep going.

And say I’ve overestimated Russian casualties by 50% and they are ‘only’ 40k as opposed to 60k. This would put them exactly at German Kursk and Robert E Lee casualty rates. That’s still debilitating

A good guess as to why the Russians would be using chemical weapons in Mariupol (if confirmed) is that their losses are so high, Russian soldiers arent willing to expose themselves any more in combat.

Institute for the Study of War showing how Russian losses are already causing major problems. Troops being bribed or previously ineligible troops being conscripted. Russia is not a bottomless well of soldiers people. This is not World War 2.

PestorPeston · 11/04/2022 22:30

US and India seem to be best friends again
twitter.com/DeptofDefense/status/1513626330780389378

MagicFox · 11/04/2022 22:40

@PestorPeston really? What are they saying?

OP posts:
Ijsbear · 11/04/2022 22:42

Institute for the Study of War showing how Russian losses are already causing major problems. Troops being bribed or previously ineligible troops being conscripted. Russia is not a bottomless well of soldiers people

No. But nor is Ukraine and it started from a position of far less soldiers, though much higher trained.

PestorPeston · 11/04/2022 22:43

They are saying how amazing each other are at live press conference. Money has been promised and maybe a nuclear sub???? (this is just guess work)

The press questions are now on. Could get current

PestorPeston · 11/04/2022 23:06

Very noticeable that the word Pakistan has not been mentioned.
Lots of trade , energy, working together, security.

blueshoes · 11/04/2022 23:45

A good guess as to why the Russians would be using chemical weapons in Mariupol (if confirmed) is that their losses are so high, Russian soldiers arent willing to expose themselves any more in combat.

This makes sense to me. Soldiers won't fight in theatre so Russia has to resort to throwing lethal stones. Dirty dirty cowardly tactics.

RedToothBrush · 12/04/2022 05:04

So far Zelensky is playing this new development calmly. He has not confirmed that chemical weapons have been used and is making a point about needing to verify it.

Meanwhile the information coming out suggests that it was deployed by drone and the scale of the attack is only small; apparently three servicemen have 'clear signs' of a chemical weapons attack. Its not thought to be lifethreatening.

Now I think with this in mind, I'm going to be particularly cautious given that there was obvious disquiet in Mariupol earlier in the day about feeling abandoned. There is, unfortunately, a motivation here to over exaggerate at this point. Also with only such a small number involved, I think other potential causes are a credible alternative explanation.

If we get a verification on this, we start to see a pattern emerge or we see a much bigger attack then i will to take it very seriously. At this stage, based on the information available and the scale of the reports (which sounds significantly less serious than the initial report) I am going to be a touch skeptical. This post might age badly, but I really think there are lots of reasons here to remain calm on this one - not least because even Zelensky is being ultra cautious on it.

Tillsforthrills · 12/04/2022 06:39

So Genocide is just happening, plans for it are open and transparent and the West does nothing.

RedToothBrush · 12/04/2022 06:58

Michael Weiss @michaeldweiss
“Eduard Heger, the Slovak prime minister, suggested on Monday that supplying Ukraine with Russian-built MiG-29 fighter jets, which are still in the arsenals of several eastern European Nato members, was back on the table.”

jgw1 · 12/04/2022 07:07

@RedToothBrush

Michael Weiss *@michaeldweiss* “Eduard Heger, the Slovak prime minister, suggested on Monday that supplying Ukraine with Russian-built MiG-29 fighter jets, which are still in the arsenals of several eastern European Nato members, was back on the table.”
I wonder if this is related to the Western part of Ukraine now being more secure to base them in?
freebritknee · 12/04/2022 07:54

@Tillsforthrills

So Genocide is just happening, plans for it are open and transparent and the West does nothing.

Looks that way doesn't it.

Tillsforthrills · 12/04/2022 08:05

There’s a new thread everyone.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4527642-Ukraine-Invasion-Part-20

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