Ukraine Invasion: Part 19

[MagicFox]

Welcome friends, still going

I think it’s a risk for sure but it’s a risk that needs to be taken. They simply cannot be allowed to continue to rape and butcher civilians indiscriminately. I don’t particularly fancy the prospect of a direct NATO Russia conflict but I’m struggling to see an alternative.

@Igotjelly

I think it’s a risk for sure but it’s a risk that needs to be taken. They simply cannot be allowed to continue to rape and butcher civilians indiscriminately. I don’t particularly fancy the prospect of a direct NATO Russia conflict but I’m struggling to see an alternative.

There is still plenty more to do before a direct conflict.. which given where the Russian military is right now, i don't think they'd want at all - Putin is gambling on our fear.

We need to be sending the Ukrainians more and better weapons & end the sea blockade, i'm at a loss why this isn't a priority.

Chernihiv:
twitter.com/sternenko/status/1512089460732690439

Translation of tweet reads:
Chernihiv. Mass burials of civilians.
There are hundreds of civilians here. And that's not all.
Burn in hell, Russian freaks.

news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-in-chernihiv-is-not-over-the-city-where-life-is-cautiously-returning-to-the-streets-12584142
Ukraine: 'War in Chernihiv is not over' - the city where life is cautiously returning to the streets
People in the largest Ukrainian city to be freed after being besieged hope the fighting will not return, but Russian troops have merely pulled across the border and stopped firing rather than dispersed completely.

"There was massive shelling," said Valery, medical director of the Chernihiv Clinical Hospital. "Our hospital was shelled too... So we had to work under such difficult circumstances, to help people - civilians and soldiers, and unfortunately children too."

He described how on a single day, within the space of about two hours, the hospital received more than 50 patients with devastating blast injuries.

and

This hospital has treated about 600 patients, 60% of them - some 360 - civilians and the rest soldiers since the fighting started.

and

He said the total number of confirmed civilian deaths from the war across the region was 300 but feared that number would grow as the authorities check buildings and houses.

The total number of civilians injured is at more than 1,000 but that could also rise.

Surprisingly little information coming out of Chernihiv so far. The numbers are interesting.

could you expand on 'interesting'?

@YorkshireLondonMiss I can't see much good of isolating Russia either. But sadly, talking and hoping that they will be reasonable is what got us here in the first place :/

They are not completely isolated by a long way though. China, India and Pakistan are still dealing with them and China seems to be much more on their side than on the West's. Turkey still wants to balance both sides.

@YorkshireLondonMiss

I’d taken a bit of a break the past couple of days after reading about bucha I just needed to focus on work and reflect a bit. Just been reading through the past threads and am quaking about all the things that have happened in the past 24 hours. It makes me feel so cowardly and stupid for feeling so afraid of what everything means Russia will be pushed into doing especially considering the bravery and determination of all the Ukrainians. Makes me feel really ashamed!

I just can’t help but wonder what it means to make Russia so isolated, is that not just going to make any dialogue with them impossible if and when the time comes? I completely appreciate we have to take a stand but it still makes me wince when I see things that might provoke Russia into committing even more atrocities. Probably me being totally naiive and stupid on how these situations are handled so please don’t take my post the wrong way!

I feel the same way.

I think isolating Russia is wrong. Did we learn nothing from the Treaty of Versailles?
I think this war can only end in compromise and dialogue.
I absolutely understand that Zelensky and his people are doing what they absolutely must for Ukraine, but what Ukraine needs is not what the west needs. We do not need WW3. Long term, the suffering and the destruction and pollution would be more, not less.
The only 2 Russian people I know are both good people. One works in healthcare and was instrumental in developing covid vaccines. The other is a teacher. They don't deserve to be taken into war or to be anyone's enemies. This is Putin's war, not theirs.
The time of Putin will pass. A younger generation, my friends' generation , will bring change, not by war, or invasion, but by common sense and an outward view of democracy at work. Or they would, unless they are dragged into WW3.
It's very much a men's war, it seems. There were no women visible at the negotiating tables.
If Russia had rolled into to Ukraine as they expected. Welcomed with flowers, what then? It would have been bad, but isn't this worse? Ukraine is destroyed. It's people in flight. It's going to suffer a similar brain drain as Russia.
Somebody is going to have to have the humanity to stop this war. It won't be Putin. That leaves Zelensky. He's clearly brave, he has integrity and intelligence, but he's made it personal. And he can't win. In a way, he's lost already.
God, I'm going to need a hard hat if I press 'post message' on this.

I agree, I am also nervous about fully isolating russia and don't think it's a good idea.

On that note, I don't think pushing russia and China further together is ideal either

@MagicFox We aren't, we are still trading with them (fossil fuels, metals, grain etc) and still maintain diplomatic ties and channels of comms.

Russia knows what to do if it wants to rejoin the modern world.

@MagicFox

On that note, I don't think pushing russia and China further together is ideal either

No, neither do I.

[quote Alexandra2001]@MagicFox We aren't, we are still trading with them (fossil fuels, metals, grain etc) and still maintain diplomatic ties and channels of comms.

Russia knows what to do if it wants to rejoin the modern world.[/quote]

That's reassuring, thank you

Somebody is going to have to have the humanity to stop this war. It won't be Putin. That leaves Zelensky. He's clearly brave, he has integrity and intelligence, but he's made it personal. And he can't win. In a way, he's lost already

How has he made it personal ? that's seems a very odd thing to say ? Why don't you believe Ukraine can win this war ?

@strawberriesarenot
God, I'm going to need a hard hat if I press 'post message' on this.

Don’t worry about stones coming at you from me. I wondered about the “Just give them the flowers” stance too. But maybe it wouldn’t turn out the way you suggest - with younger generations leading the way to a better future naturally. There seem to be countries where there is an urge for a tighter and tighter grip that never relents.

@strawberriesarenot Far too many things in your post i disagree with to write them all down.

But on the UKrainian brain drain? i think we will find Ukrainians finest will return in droves, just a female scientist stayed in Kyiv and helped write the Ipcc report into climate change.

The Ukrainians had a choice, fight or give in, if they had given in, i still thing Russia would have killed many 1000s and still destroyed the place, you don't assemble a force of 200k if you don't plan on using them.

@Wrongkindofovercoat

Somebody is going to have to have the humanity to stop this war. It won't be Putin. That leaves Zelensky. He's clearly brave, he has integrity and intelligence, but he's made it personal. And he can't win. In a way, he's lost already

How has he made it personal ? that's seems a very odd thing to say ? Why don't you believe Ukraine can win this war ?

Do you really think Ukraine can win this war? Alone? I don't. I think without the support of the west, it would be over by now.

Of course he's made it personal. He's become the face and voice of Ukraine over a good half of the planet. We haven't seen anyone like him for courage and leadership in generations.

It's been a bloodbath. It's going to be carnage. Nobody can win this war.
Zelensky will be wasted, along with a country and a couple of generations.

I wish we would put as much effort into manufacturing peace that we do into manufacturing weapons of destruction.

Max Bearak @maxbearak
Bucha is worse than initially feared. Russian soldiers there used the city as an arena for a depraved blood sport of torture, execution and mutilation. As investigators sweep through to process the bodies, that cruelty is coming into focus.

Shanshank Joshi @ shanshank Joshi
“As a team from the district prosecutor’s office moved slowly through Bucha on Wednesday, investigators uncovered evidence of torture before death, beheading and dismemberment, and the intentional burning of corpses.”

“Dmytro Chaplyhin, 21…abdomen was bruised black and blue, his hands marked with what looked like cigarette burns. He ultimately was killed by a gunshot to the chest…His body then was turned into a weapon, tied to a tripwire connected to a mine.”

Lesia Vasylenko @lesiavasylenko
90% of all civilians killed in #Bucha were shot by Russian soldiers. Killed by bullets deliberately fired at specific people. Not by random shrapnel from missiles.

Another article from Chernihiv from BBC just published:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61030090
Ukraine war: Sharing space with the dead - horror outside Chernihiv

Ukraine will win this war. It's gone too far now. The west would a complete and utter weak shit show that it is if Russia tales Ukraine now. And the west absolutely knows it.

Kudos to Zelenksyy for exposing it all

Sorry had wine 😂

Do you really think Ukraine can win this war? Alone? I don't. I think without the support of the west, it would be over by now

I didn't but i do now.
In the modern world, all countries need each other, yes the war would be over, Kyiv would be ruins, Odesa destroyed, millions enslaved by Russia, shipped to various eastern provinces...

Do you really think Putin would have treated the Ukrainians as equals? or purged them?

Human beings are war like and destructive, i'd love it if we funded new antibiotics instead of hypersonic missiles but we don't.

Don’t worry about stones coming at you from me. I wondered about the “Just give them the flowers” stance too. But maybe it wouldn’t turn out the way you suggest - with younger generations leading the way to a better future naturally. There seem to be countries where there is an urge for a tighter and tighter grip that never relents.

I agree, but not Russia. Russia culture and science has flowed in and out of Europe for generations. It's not North Korea.

The Ukrainians had a choice, fight or give in, if they had given in, i still thing Russia would have killed many 1000s and still destroyed the place, you don't assemble a force of 200k if you don't plan on using them.

That's true.

But I still think peace now should be the primary goal. Before one more child dies, one more rape, one more old person shoved out of their home. I think Russia should be offered a reset option, and there's no one to offer it but Zelensky.

It's the old guard still in charge of Russia.

Talking, appeasing and trading with Russia is exactly why we are where we are.
Politicians have said they know most russian don't want this. it's all Putin.

It's also been made clear sanctions can be reversed once all this stops.

[quote ScrollingLeaves]@strawberriesarenot
God, I'm going to need a hard hat if I press 'post message' on this.

Don’t worry about stones coming at you from me. I wondered about the “Just give them the flowers” stance too. But maybe it wouldn’t turn out the way you suggest - with younger generations leading the way to a better future naturally. There seem to be countries where there is an urge for a tighter and tighter grip that never relents.[/quote]
I don't think it would have worked out that way either. There are a significant number of young Russians who oppose Putin and his ilk, but effecting regime change would be an incredibly difficult and dangerous thing to attempt. Just like I personally wouldn't roll the dice on a direct intervention not leading to WW3, I wouldn't roll the dice on capitulating in the hopes that something better was around the corner. If it isn't, Ukraine faces the prospect of living under Russia's thumb indefinitely, and many other countries are then staring down the barrel of an emboldened Putin setting his sights on them.

Ok.deep breath....

Western states believed Putin too. I'll take Ukraine in 3-4days.

Fuck the Ukrainians we can all go back to our false lives and kick the can down the road

Except Ukraine and Zelenksyy isn't having it. We in Britain wouldn't accept it either. Would we?!

But I still think peace now should be the primary goal. Before one more child dies, one more rape, one more old person shoved out of their home. I think Russia should be offered a reset option, and there's no one to offer it but Zelensky

He is still talking isn't he?
It may only take one aggressor to start a war but it takes two to have a meaningful peace.

Just why should Russia be rewarded for its murderous war? and do you honestly think if Zelenskyy offered partition, Russia wouldn't want more?

I mean I am
Disgusted nato and eu and nato the un allowed this and STILL allow it.

I
Strawberry have you seen winters war.

They have been peaceful trying to get democracy for a long time.

Inside Russia you can't speak your mind, you are not free.
It's a dictator ship And allowing Putin to rollout the same in Ukraine would have killed it.
Then it's too late to root out the toxicity.
. this is also toxic and awful but greetings russian soldiers with flowers.. allowing themselves to be repressed.. what's next for Putin?