Ukraine Invasion: Part 19

[MagicFox]

Welcome friends, still going

@strawberriesarenot

Don’t worry about stones coming at you from me. I wondered about the “Just give them the flowers” stance too. But maybe it wouldn’t turn out the way you suggest - with younger generations leading the way to a better future naturally. There seem to be countries where there is an urge for a tighter and tighter grip that never relents.

I agree, but not Russia. Russia culture and science has flowed in and out of Europe for generations. It's not North Korea.

The Ukrainians had a choice, fight or give in, if they had given in, i still thing Russia would have killed many 1000s and still destroyed the place, you don't assemble a force of 200k if you don't plan on using them.

That's true.

But I still think peace now should be the primary goal. Before one more child dies, one more rape, one more old person shoved out of their home. I think Russia should be offered a reset option, and there's no one to offer it but Zelensky.

I’m sorry but this makes me so angry. Why on earth should Russia get a reset after what they’ve done to innocent people in Ukraine. They absolutely should not have a reset after the systemic rape and murder of women and children.

I think I just want to feel like there is a way out other than WW3 but sometimes it feels inevitable. Can we assume even though not at the forefront of news Ukrainian and Russian delegations will be continuing to talk on the sidelines?

It’s an impossible situation, I agree us relying on talks and Russia being reasonable for the past however many years has got us to where we are now sadly so in part I understand why we have the need to continue to support with sending arms etc. What I just don’t understand is why we are solely talking about supporting Ukraine with military means but then not also promoting dialogue at the same time. Even if we sort of know Russia probably aren’t holding talks in good faith doesn’t it sort of play into Russia’s idea that the West are trying to wage war? I guess in a way by encouraging negotiations it also validates the invasion though. I hate Putin.

@strawberriesarenot have you read Russia's plans for de-Ukrainianization?
t.me/ukrainenowenglish/4062
'Ukraine is not possible as a nation state'
If they fight or not they are going to be destroyed, dissipated across Russia and subject to two generations of re education. Putin's plans are why Ukrainians are willing to fight to the death or flee.

If there was no will to fight zelensky couldn't force them too.
It's not Just zelensky.

Shredded you Said what I was trying to articulate far more clearly

@MagicFox

I agree, I am also nervous about fully isolating russia and don't think it's a good idea.

It makes me nervous, HOWEVER given the rabbit hole that Russia has gone down I don't see what purpose NOT isolating them fully would be.

The damage is already done in terms of psychology. And thats NOT down to the actions of the west. Thats down to cultural Russian issues and the control of the media by the state.

NOT isolating them would merely encourage further attempts to enforce Russian Imperialism.

Yorkshire why do you feel WW3 is the only way out of this? You are buying into the USSR bull shit.

@YorkshireLondonMiss

Putin is now all in for the Dombas, i think once he gets this and land corridor to Crimea, he will want peace (Assumption is, he does get these areas)

WW3 carries the risk of nuclear war, the end of humanity and his beloved Russia, he wont risk that and NATO is being careful not to force him into a corner.

Negotiation is encouraged.

Biden said in Warsaw, they tried everything to get Putin to talk and engage Before this wicked unprovoked invasion And he said they were not interested.

Since then negotiation has been going on.

I'm sure behind the scenes a hell of a lot is going on.

@TiddyTidTwo

Ok.deep breath....

Western states believed Putin too. I'll take Ukraine in 3-4days.

Fuck the Ukrainians we can all go back to our false lives and kick the can down the road

Except Ukraine and Zelenksyy isn't having it. We in Britain wouldn't accept it either. Would we?!

I know. I do hear you. And I know you are military (and so are the last 3 generations of my family, father army, grandfather army, uncle and nephew Navy).

Yes, I think we would accept it. We are accepting right now, just for a start, atrocities in China, children shredded by starvation in Afghanistan.
We are not wonderful.
We are not saviours.
We accept other nations' suffering with horrible equanimity, especially when it doesn't make the prime time news.

It's fuck Ukraine or fuck a lot more than Ukraine.

I tell you what else we are accepting: that Putin has given us only those 2 choices.

On a more positive note multiple Ukrainian families have started to arrive in the UK near me.

@TiddyTidTwo Ha I told you I was naiive. This is why I love these threads because they keep me grounded. Honestly propaganda spins me out because I soak it up - that’s why I tend to steer clear of Twitter nowadays, I only have to read one tweet and I go into a tailspin.

I think generally I understand what’s going on but as a bit of an anxious person, I’m always honing in on the what ifs.

[quote YorkshireLondonMiss]@TiddyTidTwo Ha I told you I was naiive. This is why I love these threads because they keep me grounded. Honestly propaganda spins me out because I soak it up - that’s why I tend to steer clear of Twitter nowadays, I only have to read one tweet and I go into a tailspin.

I think generally I understand what’s going on but as a bit of an anxious person, I’m always honing in on the what ifs.[/quote]
Propaganda is designed to do just that, doesn’t make you naive or stupid that you’re sucked in by it, it’s literally what it’s for and the Russians do it well (generally)

I still fail to see how the fuck you can negotiate peace when one person is not interested in it?

I mean seriously?

This point of view that peace should be arranged before one more child dies and one more woman (or man) is raped is just silly.

They brought 45 THOUSAND body bags into a take over they thought would be peaceful. The current thinking is that they -planned- 45 THOUSAND executions.

What sort of idiocy is it to think that Peace At Any Cost will stop Ukrainians being killed?

If Ukraine had given in then Moldovia, Poland and the other countries would have been next. Ukraine's gigantic strife and the price it is paying mean that country after country in Eastern Europe is -safer- from being invaded.

It isn't even remotely realistic to think that peace is an option at this moment.

Just look at what's actually happening instead of allowing emotion to overrule reason.

Biden said in Warsaw, they tried everything to get Putin to talk and engage Before this wicked unprovoked invasion And he said they were not interested.

Did they? They knew Putin was only interested in assurances that Ukraine won't join NATO. They most certainly didn't try that.

Chardonnay I don't know who was involved in talks because promising that Ukraine won't join NATO is not American's promise to give.
Biden Said they tried talking and Putin didn't want too know

The risk if we fuck Ukraine is
we fuck Moldovia
we fuck Romania (nice land bridge to Serbia)
we fuck everyone else in that corner, maybe even Greece
talking land bridges
we fuck Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia
we fuck Finland, Sweden and Norway
Not all at once, maybe every three years he could get more troops trained and just wander into the next country to be greeted by flowers.
NATO would fall apart along the way and we could possibly stand as a little bit of Oceania, getting bombed by Eurasia.

OK that is probably rambling on too far. But, where would he stop? It wouldn't be Ukraine.

Also Putin hasn't mentioned NATO much recently it's all About saving Ukraine from Nazis

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Biden said in Warsaw, they tried everything to get Putin to talk and engage Before this wicked unprovoked invasion And he said they were not interested.

Did they? They knew Putin was only interested in assurances that Ukraine won't join NATO. They most certainly didn't try that.

Ukraine was no where nr joining nato, it wasn't even in the early stages and with the war in the Donbas, extremely unlikely to join, Putin knew that. I guess we could have called his bluff.

@PaperTyger

Chardonnay I don't know who was involved in talks because promising that Ukraine won't join NATO is not American's promise to give. Biden Said they tried talking and Putin didn't want too know

Who knows.

Was it worth it though?

The (real) mayor of Melitopol has said that over 100 teachers and lecturers have been abducted and the Russians are attempting to control all education in the city. This seems to echo stories from other areas. Classic totalitarian tactics from Hitler to Stalin to Mao to Pol Pot.

@PestorPeston I agree he wouldn’t have stopped at Ukraine he’s totally overcome by the idea of mother Russia being restored. As the supposedly richest man in the world you’d think he would have more enjoyable things to retire to than being a crazed war monger at the age of 70. Just makes me think if he does succeed in taking Donbas what will he do in another few years…unless he dies which as someone who works in oncology I don’t generally wish on anyone but I’ll make an exception for him. And the absolute animals raping and killing people.

@PaperTyger

Also Putin hasn't mentioned NATO much recently it's all About saving Ukraine from Nazis

Funny I was thinking this earlier (didn’t say anything as wasn’t wanting to tempt fate) also currently less sabre rattling than I had expected.

But I still think peace now should be the primary goal. Before one more child dies, one more rape, one more old person shoved out of their home

and then

Yes, I think we would accept it. We are accepting right now, just for a start, atrocities in China, children shredded by starvation in Afghanistan.
We are not wonderful
We are not saviours.
We accept other nations' suffering with horrible equanimity, especially when it doesn't make the prime time news

So .. leave them to it and let Russia take over? allowing starvation, forced sterilizations and just get on with our own lives and let other people make war?

Just to save one more rape happening, one more death?

I think that's the most arse-about face thinking I've read on this thread and in the early days there were a fair few Russian bots advocating peace. Even they made more sense than this.

Zelensky is taking this personally? Well yes sugar. He is. That's what happens when you see your country torn apart.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Biden said in Warsaw, they tried everything to get Putin to talk and engage Before this wicked unprovoked invasion And he said they were not interested.

Did they? They knew Putin was only interested in assurances that Ukraine won't join NATO. They most certainly didn't try that.

No they didn't try that.

They dangled NATO membership to Ukraine when they knew fine well they would never allow it. Ukraine didn't though, and Russia took the bait too.

Also after Ukraine, Russia couldn't have gone onto Poland without having to take on NATO.

What makes people here think Putin will stop at land corridor and Dombas?

I agree 45,000 body bags is sick.
I didn't say any of this was fair. Of course it's not fair. It's not a fair world.
And I'm not sticking up for Putin and his henchmen. If I could obliterate them, I would. We all would.
I am sticking up for damage limitation.

Maksym eristavi

not a single hospital stands after russian airstrikes in luhansk region. this one is recently-renovated in rubizhne. this is russian revenge for ukraine rebuilding donbas better after 2014 invasion
twitter.com/maximeristavi/status/1512163293171011588?s=21