If there was a general election tomorrow and you were an ordinary woman on an average wage..

[Kreuzberg]

Who would you really vote for ? A party wishy washy on self ID and other trans issues with a gobby brash deputy leader who puts her foot in it and a lacking in charisma but well meaning leader or a party that implemented austerity, savage cuts to all public services, oversaw the deaths of 150,000, deceitful, pork barrel politics, corrupt, but with a teflon coated populist leader, plummy voiced slick mps and a less wishy washy stance on self ID (although not necessarily to be trusted)
What is most important to women earning £30,000 who are going to be hugely affected by the spiralling cost of living, struggling to heat their homes, feed their kids ? Issues very much the result of conservative policies like brexit, austerity etc or trans issues ?
I'm not pro self ID but not cat in hells chance I'd ever vote tory either. Their past record is not erased just because they say they know what a woman is. I'm addressing this to average earners too as they are on the front line.

Labour don’t need a woman leader because women don’t really exist.

I think we're witnessing a failure of the electoral system to deliver genuine democratic will, on an unprecedented scale. The only possible solution to this is a root and branch reappraisal of how our democracy works and a move to some form of proportional representation. Thus any party I vote for would have to be one that puts this front and centre as a firm commitment - along with strong answers to the other issue that matters more than anything else, climate change.

It's beyond my comprehension that anyone could vote for the Tory party now. Maybe a few of the ultra rich out of the perception of self interest, but even that looks rickety when you look at their failure to properly address climate change which affects us all. For the rest, it just must be some part of the human psyche beyond my understanding. I never would have said that before when the Tories, while having different politics to myself, at least made some rational sense. But now, it's beyond me.

Having said that, I can't vote Labour due to Starmer's abhorrent disregard for democracy and their refusal to sign up to meaningful electoral reform. And more importantly, because the forces of meaningful change within the party have been so ruthlessly destroyed by a combination of agents over the last few years that I don't think what's left of "Labour" would change anything much or make much difference.

Possibly Green, just to get their numbers up and see what happens long term. Possibly, for the first time ever, I won't vote.

Green are equally as bad as Labour on the self ID stuff.

@EatSleepRantRepeat

Several pages on and there is still no answer from a labour voter about why they think they've never had a female leader.

Do you somehow think that there are no women in the party who are capable of leadership? Or do they feel their core voter base is made up of misogynist men and it will alienate them?

Because if Yvette Cooper ran against Boris tomorrow I'd vote for her hands-down.

Indeed.

They also blatantly ignore the fact that the UK is NOT a monolith and there are other reasons to vote Conservative in other parts of the UK.

In Scotland, there's a reason why the Conservatives ate the second biggest party having eclipsed Labour there a few years ago.

And that is the Constitutional debate is largely the predominant issue. The Conservatives are much, much stronger on being pro-union and are clearly the only party capable of taking seats from the SNP.

Labour, on the other hand, has tried to play two horses which has blown up in their faces quite spectacularly. As a result, they are heavily squeezed in two by the Conservatives and SNP. Another drawback for Labour is their sister party is actually a Nationalist party known as the SDLP. Therefore, they cannot win back voters by trying to appear to be pro-union.

And they cannot win back voters by trying to appear to be more Socialist Democratic than the SNP either.

The wholesale demonisation of people, especially working class, who vote Conservative is ridiculous. That ideology is another thing that hamstrings Labour. The UK isn't just England, you know.

Then you have the fact Labour PLP has not had a female leader whilst their Scottish female leader in Kezia Dugdale was an abject disaster.

Their stance on women and trans individuals is just another example of Labour shooting themselves in the foot by alienating a good proportion of voters they need to win back.

Labour voters....it's incredibly easy take potshots at the Conservatives and those who vote for them. But that is merely an attempt to avoid the reasons why Labour is not in power and hasn't been for some time now.

Have an honest post-mortem where Labour looks at itself, eh? It's your only way forward.

Apologies @DownNative I should have said Labour PLP - I don't know much first hand about Scottish politics, never lived there.

@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie

And Johnson isn't a misogynist? If people truly think him tripping out a few soundbites makes him on their side, then I fear for the country even more. That's what got us Brexit.

Exactly.

I don’t give a flying fuck if a leader is male or female. Margaret Thatcher was a woman but I don’t see that biology made her somehow special. I do care if a leader has moral fibre.

@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie

I don’t give a flying fuck if a leader is male or female. Margaret Thatcher was a woman but I don’t see that biology made her somehow special. I do care if a leader has moral fibre.

Quite.

One female leader and yet the Tory front bench is still dominated by rich privileged Etonians. Nothing has changed.

You've forgotten Teresa May that equals 2-0

You're right, i did forget about her, but then I was talking about leaders 😂

The front bench is no longer dominated by Etonians as it was not long age

It’s also ethnically diverse

It’s odd that the Tories lead they way in having woman as leaders and senior members of the cabinet from ethnic backgrounds

Maybe that’s more to do with the Tories core belief of individualism

I'd vote Labour. My boss and I were having a discussion about class the other day and it got to the stage where I more or less hissed at "I am working class to my roots and will be to the day I die". His face was a picture. But as a solid working class working (for a few more months) woman - I'll be voting Labour on the basis that at least they seem to care if disabled people, disadvantaged people and poor people actually live or die!

at him. I hissed at him facepalm

Hey she showed the way with her boogie on stage.

Truthfully I'm more labour than tory but I can't stand womens long fought for rights being eroded.
And people being gaslighted, including young children into what is or isn't a boy or girl.
My favourite toy was a tractor 🚜 and I grew up a tom-boy but I'd fear girls like me would be getting made think they were really a trans-boy.

@AhNowTed

You're right, i did forget about her, but then I was talking about leaders 😂

Again, this misogynistic offhand bullshit doesn't get rolled out about male leaders, or the comparison just based on their sex. Theresa May took on a poisoned chalice when all the blokes were infighting amongst themselves - knowing she'd be responsible for the Brexit deal (IIRC she voted remain) and at least one part of the populace would hate her ever since. Once she'd done the hard work, they booted her and put the popular class clown in her place.

You've still not answered my question - why have Labour never elected a female leader?

@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie

I don’t give a flying fuck if a leader is male or female. Margaret Thatcher was a woman but I don’t see that biology made her somehow special. I do care if a leader has moral fibre.

So role models for young women don't matter then? Even if they don't like Thatcher/May's politics, who's supposed to inspire the next generation of female MPs to sign up and get elected if they never see another woman in leadership? Or is this another profession that Labour and the unions think is a man's job?

I've worked for a trade union before and it was the most sexist, bullying work culture I've ever encountered.

@EatSleepRantRepeat

Will you ever stop. Women don't get into job jobs for a myriad of reasons as you well know.

I am a woman with a successful job in a male dominated field, and have seen no end of misogyny first hand.

I admire Thatcher for her fortitude but nothing else.

And saying May was totally unfit for the job is not misogynistic.

I would love to see Yvette Cooper as leader.

Theresa May took on a poisoned chalice when all the blokes were infighting amongst themselves - knowing she'd be responsible for the Brexit deal (IIRC she voted remain) and at least one part of the populace would hate her ever since
Theresa May displayed blindingly poor judgement in letting her ambition rule her head when she ran for leader. Everyone knew it was a poisoned chalice. And then she compounded it by bringing in the DUP to prop her up.

@EatSleepRantRepeat

Where did I say role models for young women don't matter?

Neither May or Thatcher are good role models.

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

Theresa May took on a poisoned chalice when all the blokes were infighting amongst themselves - knowing she'd be responsible for the Brexit deal (IIRC she voted remain) and at least one part of the populace would hate her ever since Theresa May displayed blindingly poor judgement in letting her ambition rule her head when she ran for leader. Everyone knew it was a poisoned chalice. And then she compounded it by bringing in the DUP to prop her up.

Doing a Supply Of Confidence deal wasn't May's problem.

Rather, her problem was trying to keep two sides of the very polarised debate happy - Leavers and Remainers.

Arguably, being very weak in relation to her red lines in negotiations was a real disaster. Neither Remainers or Leavers could have any confidence in her after that.

And that is what gave Boris Johnson the opportunity to oust her.

I don't need to stop @AhNowTed - I want to know why Labour has never elected a female leader and as yet no-one has answered it. Women don't get into job jobs for a myriad of reasons as you well know is not an answer.

Theresa May displayed blindingly poor judgement in letting her ambition rule her head when she ran for leader. Everyone knew it was a poisoned chalice. And then she compounded it by bringing in the DUP to prop her up

So when do you think she should have run for leader then @pastmybestbeforedate ? Who should have taken the job - Michael Gove? 🤣

When do I think she should have run for leader? What a strange question. She wasn't very good and wouldn't have won any leadership election in normal times.
I don't know or care who should have taken the job. The options were all awful.

"Neither May or Thatcher are good role models." - That's just one person's view. Many differ from that view.

The issue for Labour is it has to accept the plank in its own eye, realise it is wrong, rather than on some moral high ground and change if it ever wants to be elected again - 2005 was its last win. If it will not do that that is absolutely fine by me as I vote Conservative. It is people like I am not die hard labour voters it needs to convince having made its necessary changes.