If there was a general election tomorrow and you were an ordinary woman on an average wage..

[Kreuzberg]

Who would you really vote for ? A party wishy washy on self ID and other trans issues with a gobby brash deputy leader who puts her foot in it and a lacking in charisma but well meaning leader or a party that implemented austerity, savage cuts to all public services, oversaw the deaths of 150,000, deceitful, pork barrel politics, corrupt, but with a teflon coated populist leader, plummy voiced slick mps and a less wishy washy stance on self ID (although not necessarily to be trusted)
What is most important to women earning £30,000 who are going to be hugely affected by the spiralling cost of living, struggling to heat their homes, feed their kids ? Issues very much the result of conservative policies like brexit, austerity etc or trans issues ?
I'm not pro self ID but not cat in hells chance I'd ever vote tory either. Their past record is not erased just because they say they know what a woman is. I'm addressing this to average earners too as they are on the front line.

LangClegsInSpace Nothing to do with not listening. They were going to scrap the ban. Then they changed their minds.

Carry on not listening.

Labour everytime...I feel that on things like Health, Education, Housing, etc their policies benefit the majority.

Even if I was inclined to vote Tory, I would be disappointed (to put it mildly) with the current ministers. They have no moral compass...Thatcher would have shot the lot of them!

No idea

Possibly Lib Dem just because they narrowly lost to the tories here last time or Mebyon Kernow because it's been drilled in to me to vote for someone.

Definitely not Tories and as it stands not Labour, and they'd have to do a lot to win my vote

Just vote tactically. Whoever is most likely to get the Tories out. I hate and despise what the Tories have done to this country and cannot wait for them to go. No one could do more damage than they have in the past 12 years. Get them OUT! Priority number one. Everything else, we can sort out later.

I’d like to vote social democrat but they’re unlikely to put up a candidate in my area. I wont vote labour due to their stance on self ID and not being willing to clearly say what a woman is. I used to be a member and have predominantly voted Labour in every election (with occasional Lib Dem as tactical, or Green).

If I was in Rosie Duffield’s constituency then I would vote Labour but I’m not.

I think I’m going to have to vote Tory, even though I’m anti Tory. Then I’ll write to labour and tell them why. Or maybe spoil my ballot as I can’t bring myself to vote for the bumbling buffoon.

Voting Tory means 5 more years of economic policies I hate. But letting Labour in would mean putting womens right back decades, and I will not stand for that.

Tory as I like my MP but she's new and very keen at the moment so we'll see if that lasts. I feel politically homeless to be honest, but cannot not vote as my grandmother would be spinning in her grave.

As much as I have tried, I can't take to Keir Starmer and hell would freeze over before I voted Lib Dem

I do think that those who would otherwise lean towards labour (or any other party for that matter) but feel this issue is a barrier should consider emailing or tweeting their local party representative and explain exactly why they won’t be given their vote before spoiling their vote, making a protest vote or abstaining.

Why wait for an election to use your political voice? Change can be brought about at any time, making a statement like spoiling your vote or abstaining doesn’t give you the opportunity to make your reasoning clear and allow the opportunity for a representative to hear your concerns and consider other avenues. Preferably before we lock into a less than ideal government at the next general election. There’s two more years to lead representatives if the will of people is there.

@Cornettoninja

I do think that those who would otherwise lean towards labour (or any other party for that matter) but feel this issue is a barrier should consider emailing or tweeting their local party representative and explain exactly why they won’t be given their vote before spoiling their vote, making a protest vote or abstaining.

Why wait for an election to use your political voice? Change can be brought about at any time, making a statement like spoiling your vote or abstaining doesn’t give you the opportunity to make your reasoning clear and allow the opportunity for a representative to hear your concerns and consider other avenues. Preferably before we lock into a less than ideal government at the next general election. There’s two more years to lead representatives if the will of people is there.

Have you seen what happened to Marion Miller, Kate Scottow, the doxxing of Posie's kids (sorry if I'm deadnaming you Posie now you're out as Kelly-Jay but I just still think of you as Posie), Maya, Caroline Farrow etc etc etc etc.

Not to mention the multiple posts on here about women being hauled in front of HR for being bigots and believing in biology.

There's a good reason a lot of women don't want to put their head above the parapet on this - anyone in academia or public services that actually needs to keep their job would be madly brave / insane to put their real name to this.

The secret ballot may be all some women have. That in itself is chilling.

Not to mention the expulsion of actual labour members from the party over this?

@Dammitthisisshit

I’d like to vote social democrat but they’re unlikely to put up a candidate in my area. I wont vote labour due to their stance on self ID and not being willing to clearly say what a woman is. I used to be a member and have predominantly voted Labour in every election (with occasional Lib Dem as tactical, or Green).

If I was in Rosie Duffield’s constituency then I would vote Labour but I’m not.

I think I’m going to have to vote Tory, even though I’m anti Tory. Then I’ll write to labour and tell them why. Or maybe spoil my ballot as I can’t bring myself to vote for the bumbling buffoon.

Voting Tory means 5 more years of economic policies I hate. But letting Labour in would mean putting womens right back decades, and I will not stand for that.

Yes agree. People forget how quickly women's rights can be lost. The standard for most of human history is that women don't actually have human rights at all. No right to vote, to education. Look at what's happened in Afghanistan. Girls now can't go to school.

It's not THAT long ago we got the vote.

If we lose more sex based rights I don't see us getting them back in my daughters' lifetime. An economy can be turned around much more easily.

Also, a lot of economic problems are now baked in from the Tories yes, but also Brexit (democratic but economically stupid) and the oil crisis, covid, war in the Ukraine which Labour wouldn't necessarily deal any better with.

Given they don't know what a woman is, arguably they'd have handled covid a lot worse, because recognising biological reality and not just magical wishful thinking is quite critical in dealing with a pandemic. Covid knows who's male or female.

Yet another thread on this. Did you not read the one last week?

Labour. If you actually care about women in prison, or refuges, or rape crisis centres you can’t vote for the party that has slashed funding for them all and puts women’s lives in danger.

@caringcarer

Yet another thread on this. Did you not read the one last week?

If we could only have one thread per topic MN would have closed down 15 years ago. Do you not think that as it has got to 20 pages people are interested? Or do you like to stifle conversation?

The left need to grow the fuck up and stop seeing everything in overly simplistic terms of good/bad, villains/heros etc. They need to stop kneejerking and learn to read the small print of the causes they adopt.

This 100%

The black/white thinking, groupthink and inability to understand facts and nuance really reminds me of stroppy teenagers. It's just not very adult behaviour.

It's clear the conversion therapy ban was a PR exercise from the start as it seems (having read a bit about it) that most of the stuff which is real conversion therapy is illegal anyway under existing laws. If you wanted to make a difference actually doing something to see whether those laws are enforced would probably be more meaningful. But of course be less headline-worthy.

But a lot of people are just twitter social justice warriors and do nothing practical or useful in real life at all. I wish we could get rid of twitter, I suspect that the harms of it vastly outweigh any good.

The black/white thinking, groupthink and inability to understand facts and nuance really reminds me of stroppy teenagers. It's just not very adult behaviour.

I think it's a US import.

In their system there's frequently more concensous between the vast bulk of the voting groups/general public but billions are spent making it seem like giant insurmountable chasms and then republican party has lurched to extremes which helps with that view.

Our society is differenet despite the common language - and our poltical system is as well - and that often seem lost in social media posts.

@SusiePevensie

Labour. If you actually care about women in prison, or refuges, or rape crisis centres you can’t vote for the party that has slashed funding for them all and puts women’s lives in danger.

Labour support putting rapist and pedophiles in with women and prisons with mother and baby units.

So, no thanks.

I would vote Conservative. I am that woman.

@caringcarer

Yet another thread on this. Did you not read the one last week?

This thread was started last week, does that meet your criteria for allowing a discussion to continue

@theemperorhasnoclothes I appreciate the reluctance for people to state their views on a platform like Twitter but there are other ways to communicate with MP’s and party members.

I think what is happening with the targeting of individuals for not agreeing with an ideology is horrendous, I really do, but there does come a point where people have to stand and be counted to have credibility. Serious dialogue and influence isn’t going to happen from the murmurings of the anonymous even if those murmurings get consistently louder.

Boris’s PR team are listening!

www.bbc.com/sport/61012030.amp

Well I'm posting on MN and I've emailed my MP about this (Tory) so I've done all that. Contributed to crowdfunders, signed petitions. MPs have to preserve confidentiality - is there any requirement for this from candidates of the opposition?

Frankly I'm at the point where I fundamentally don't trust anyone who spouts some word salad in response to the question 'what is a woman'. I don't trust them not to 'accidentally' leak my details or do something vindictive and nasty because what they're doing to women in prisons, in sports, in refuges is vindictive and nasty.

And from writing to my Tory MP, the conservative line is really changing on this. My MP is a waste of space useless human being who only ever spouts the party line. A year ago I got some very misogynistic word salad when I sent him a question about women's rights which implied that it didn't matter if we did things to erode safeguarding which would prevent crimes from happening because we had a law against rape and so women could get justice 'after the fact' - which clearly isn't happening and is why safeguarding is important. I'm getting a much clearer response that is better for safeguarding and women's rights now.

I strongly suspect he agrees with me (he has daughters), but he'll basically say whatever the government wants him to say on this and everything else.

To put it bluntly, Labour lost my vote a while ago and have done nothing to win it back.

The Conservatives are doing a lot to lose my vote, but also some things - around women's rights and safeguarding - to win my vote.

Since women's rights and safeguarding are two of the most important issues for me, voting for them has become an option. I'd rather vote for an independent or for another party who knows what a woman is and why biological reality rather than magical thinking is important for women's rights and safeguarding. However, I don't have that option.

If I do vote Tory it will feel good to vote again at least. I haven't felt great about spoiling for the last few elections because I know that women's right to vote is a fragile thing.

I would probably vote for a candidate for another party that actually says something clear on women's rights. And how reality, not how we wish things are, is important, especially for the poorest and most vulnerable in society, like the women locked up with rapists.

So you’re agreeing it’s a worthwhile exercise to communicate with your MP @theemperorhasnoclothes?

Without people being prepared to stand alongside those who are being harassed and publicly agree with them then the conversation is led by those who are prepared to stand by their opinion openly. Candidates, waving any colour flag, will base their decisions to either reconsider their opinion or state an existing one openly with support in mind. They’re human and see the same people taken down on social media, why would they risk the same for a stance they’re otherwise unaffected by, or at least perceive they are of the people claiming to oppose this don’t offer support for them taking the same stance?

Yes, I agree Cornetto but I think different women will have different levels of ability to speak up.

A single mother supporting her children on her own, with no savings, no back up wealth, working for a woker than woke University really can't afford to speak up publicly. Look what happened to Maya.

I think many women don't speak up because of not wanting those making rape and death threats to target their kids.

I watched a Posie video the other day and she said something about the personal cost to her and to her family - it was something along the lines of this being greater than anyone knows. She's also said that her relative financial security is part of the reason why she can do what she does. She is a very, very brave extraordinary woman with a very brave family supporting her. Apart from anything else, you'd need to have your families consent (in my opinion) before developing a public profile on this because it's going to affect them too given the evidenced level of threat from TRAs.

And actually I do think MPs (Labour and Lib Dem and Green) have an obligation to speak up when others don't. They are publicly elected officials who make laws. They have an obligation to not just go along blindly with an ideology that makes no rational sense, is not evidence-based, and harms 50% of the population and undermines safeguarding for children. I don't think it's ok for an MP to keep under the radar in the way that many normal women are doing - because they have real power given to them by the electorate.