If there was a general election tomorrow and you were an ordinary woman on an average wage..

[Kreuzberg]

Who would you really vote for ? A party wishy washy on self ID and other trans issues with a gobby brash deputy leader who puts her foot in it and a lacking in charisma but well meaning leader or a party that implemented austerity, savage cuts to all public services, oversaw the deaths of 150,000, deceitful, pork barrel politics, corrupt, but with a teflon coated populist leader, plummy voiced slick mps and a less wishy washy stance on self ID (although not necessarily to be trusted)
What is most important to women earning £30,000 who are going to be hugely affected by the spiralling cost of living, struggling to heat their homes, feed their kids ? Issues very much the result of conservative policies like brexit, austerity etc or trans issues ?
I'm not pro self ID but not cat in hells chance I'd ever vote tory either. Their past record is not erased just because they say they know what a woman is. I'm addressing this to average earners too as they are on the front line.

In reference to your comment "lies over the £350 million", businessman Marcus Ball took Boris Johnson to court over that.

The High Court threw the case out stating:

“The alleged offence set out in the Application for Summons is that the Claimant “repeatedly made and endorsed false and misleading statements concerning the cost of the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union”.It appears that if the Claimant had said/endorsed a figure of £350m per week gross, or £250m per week net, there would have been no complaint.”

And:

“No authority was shown to us suggesting that the offence can be or has been equated to bringing an office into disrepute or misusing a platform outside the scope of the office.”

In other words, Ball would have had no problem if the side of the bus stated "£350 million [B]gross[/B]" or "£250 million [B]net[/B]".

Essentially, it wasn't a lie in the court's view and no evidence was produced in regards to "bringing an office into disrepute or misusing a platform outside the scope of the office" either.

I realise it is much easier to go with an emotional reaction to these things, but it does help to take note of what the High Court said.

High Court judges are not idiots.

[quote Parker231]@DownNative - my father left the U.K. at the height of Thatcher’s destructive years - his comments were relevant at that time.[/quote]
Don't be ridiculous! At that time, SF/PIRA were murdering people in the UK.

The whole "most wicked person alive" thing is either hyperbole OR suggests he lived in a small bubble.

Either way, Thatcher as the most wicked person alive at the time doesn't reflect the reality of the world as it was then.

I am a normal woman on an average wage and I'm contemplating voting Tory for the first time in my life.

Always voted Labour, then occasionally Green and Lib Dem, then National Health Action Party (who is the only party I'd vote for again enthusiastically at this point - but haven't seen a candidate recently), recently I've only had a choice of main parties so have spoiled my ballot.

It's about child safety and child safeguarding for me. Labour is actively eroding this. Tories are eroding this but not deliberately and actively, only as the side effect of making themselves richer, so there's some wriggle room to make things better because it's not ideologically the main point.

Tories are dreadful but a bit more honest to me. They serve a tiny minority, but we know what their objectives are (profit and wealth) so they are at least predictable and as long as they can keep getting richer they're happy for everyone else to have some freedom. They do lie, sure, but their lies are pretty transparent and they don't demand that everyone pretend to agree with their lies or face terrible consequences. They're not condoning rape or death threats or threatening forcible arrest because of 'hate crime' to women who think (and say) that partygate was a terrible illegal and harmful thing to do. You can still criticise this government openly without fear, many do. .

Labour have shown in recent years that they serve only a tiny minority too, but unlike the Tories it's totally unpredictable what that minority stand for and how to not fall foul of them and there is a climate of real fear - you can be denounced for 'wrong think' for nothing, especially if you're female. Where someone being denounced can destroy livelihoods, get people arrested - even if those people have done nothing different to many others, nothing illegal, broken no laws. Even if those people have done nothing substantively different than those engaged in 'right think'. It's like McCarthyism and I think that's what we'd get under Labour, a form of McCarthyism.

I feel safe to criticise the Tories. I don't feel safe to say what I really think about Labour policies and this is what makes me scared of them being in power. There are hundreds of thousands of women who agree with Maya and Posie and JKR and the sheros but would never ever dare to put their head above the parapet for fear of losing their job, or being put through hell (and their kids being put through hell) like Marion Miller and Kate Scottow.

It's about who you want the tiny minority political masters to be. Because it's not going to be better under either, but under the Tories I think there's still a hope things can get better at some point. Under Labour I have my doubts.

@DownNative - my father (now retired) was an international banker - travelled and worked all over the world often with governments. He’s very astute- nothing naive about him.

@theemperorhasnoclothes have labour been in power the last 12 years ? The tories are honest ? But of course you are not a tory voter..

Kreuzberg - you've rather illustrated part of my point.

You're going to denounce and dismiss me as 'a Tory' and not listen to my real concerns. I'm a non-person because I don't agree with you.

The point of a democracy is people can vote for whatever reason they want. People are entitled to a vote, even if you disagree with them. The Labour party supporters on here are very much diminishing the real fears of many women. Read what I wrote, I believe the ideology the Labour party is pursuing above all else threatens child safeguarding and safety. That's my main issue for voting. If you think I like the Tories, go and read my posts on the Covid boards. I am very vocally critical of them.

I just think they don't want to control my thoughts or actively erode child safety, and Labour demonstrably do. So they are the lesser of two very horrible evils.

I didn't say the Tories were honest, I said they are a 'bit more honest' than Labour. It's a low bar. They lie and use those lies to justify terrible things, but they don't expect me to pretend to agree with their lies or suffer terrible consequences.

I think mnhq should put a kind of trigger warning on these sort of threads, something like

ITS A TRAP 😱😱😱😱

Yes I posted originally thinking the OP was a genuine floating voter, or possibly a journalist doing some research for an article, but now it transpires that he/she is a Labour party activist - it is a misleading OP.

Remember the lurkers.

I know that Labour activists won't ever believe women. They've shown that many times over. That while they say they believe in self-ID in reality they only believe in self-ID for a certain group the 'right thinkers'. Not for boring old average woman or average men for that matter. Or anyone who believes that the fundamentals of biology are verifiable truths.

It's probably their main problem actually. Anyone who disagrees with them they say 'oh, a Tory' even if that person is demonstrably previously Labour and can prove it. Nope, if you disagree, you're a lifelong Tory that can never be swayed. Not a winning strategy. Nor is underestimating the extent to which women care about child safety and safeguarding loopholes.

They seem to think reality is what those in power say or feel it is rather than what the majority are really experiencing. I suspect that if they got into power they'd simply self-ID as successfully fixing the energy crisis, poverty crisis etc, whilst not bothering to do anything.

theemperor I found your posts interesting thank you

Can I please remind everyone that Thatcher left power 32 years ago FFS! She's been dead 9 years!!

Thatcher this, Thatcher that - her policies were shitty for many people, including my own family, but what the men really hated her for was being a woman who wouldn't be told to sit down and shut up.

Blair took us into an illegal war and murdered thousands of Iraqis supposedly to protect us all from Saddam, comparable to what Poo-tin is doing now with Ukraine, yet I'm still yet to hear a formal apology from Labour for that. Over a million of us marched in London against it but they just treated us with contempt - I'll never forget that.

To many Labour activities are too enthralled with their own perceived superiority anyone that has a differing opinion regardless of their political stance is usually branded a Tory (aka scum). They love to witter on about people’s lack critical thinking skills while congratulating each other for being so intelligent yet are not open to actually listening to other’s opinions, of seeing the bigger picture, there are not open to discussion they are only wanting to put people right 🙄 it’s tiresome and it drives away voters not pulls them in

Labour need to do better. We need leadership as we had in Blair’s early days we need that drive from the leader for voters to vote for the party so the could get in power to make changes not a leader who is trying to please a few to show what a nice understanding guy he is

Labour need to concentrate on what they will do not want the Tories are not doing. Telling the voters how they will make things work. Under Blair/Brown the campaign to win the election started way before an election date was set

**theemperorhasnoclothes

I am a normal woman on an average wage and I'm contemplating voting Tory for the first time in my life.

Always voted Labour, then occasionally Green and Lib Dem, then National Health Action Party (who is the only party I'd vote for again enthusiastically at this point - but haven't seen a candidate recently), recently I've only had a choice of main parties so have spoiled my ballot.

It's about child safety and child safeguarding for me. Labour is actively eroding this. Tories are eroding this but not deliberately and actively, only as the side effect of making themselves richer, so there's some wriggle room to make things better because it's not ideologically the main point.**
This is ridiculous. The Tories have cut children's services to the bone. Social services has been decimated and schools are on their knees. If child safeguarding is your concern then these things should be at the forefront of your mind. Their focus on profit drives away any level of investment in services which don't provide for fiscal targets. Our young people are not being safeguarded by the Tories, they are been hung out to dry.

Tories are dreadful but a bit more honest to me. They serve a tiny minority, but we know what their objectives are (profit and wealth) so they are at least predictable and as long as they can keep getting richer they're happy for everyone else to have some freedom. They do lie, sure, but their lies are pretty transparent and they don't demand that everyone pretend to agree with their lies or face terrible consequences. They're not condoning rape or death threats or threatening forcible arrest because of 'hate crime' to women who think (and say) that partygate was a terrible illegal and harmful thing to do. You can still criticise this government openly without fear, many do. .
So the bill to criminalise protests is fine with you then? They don't condone rape - one of their own is facing allegations of sexual harassment but it's just a midlife crisis. They have scrapped plans to ban conversion therapy. That is condoning serious harm to a minority group of people. Who cares if their lies are transparent. Have we sunk so low that this is now the bar? I want to teach my kids integrity and honesty but it becomes increasingly difficult when lying is acceptable.

**Labour have shown in recent years that they serve only a tiny minority too, but unlike the Tories it's totally unpredictable what that minority stand for and how to not fall foul of them and there is a climate of real fear - you can be denounced for 'wrong think' for nothing, especially if you're female. Where someone being denounced can destroy livelihoods, get people arrested - even if those people have done nothing different to many others, nothing illegal, broken no laws. Even if those people have done nothing substantively different than those engaged in 'right think'. It's like McCarthyism and I think that's what we'd get under Labour, a form of McCarthyism.

I feel safe to criticise the Tories. I don't feel safe to say what I really think about Labour policies and this is what makes me scared of them being in power. There are hundreds of thousands of women who agree with Maya and Posie and JKR and the sheros but would never ever dare to put their head above the parapet for fear of losing their job, or being put through hell (and their kids being put through hell) like Marion Miller and Kate Scottow.

It's about who you want the tiny minority political masters to be. Because it's not going to be better under either, but under the Tories I think there's still a hope things can get better at some point. Under Labour I have my doubts**
After 12 years I can't see how things can get better. Everyday I see first hand the impact of lack of investment in people because profit comes first with this Government. Whilst some people are facing the very real decision between heating and food, the rich are getting richer but it's okay because "I'm alright Jack".

Whilst you may not agree with the stance labour take you can't insist that it's because of the issues you highlight above because they don't hold up to scrutiny.

Sorry, epic fail on trying bold text.

I'm a labour activist ? That's new to me. Not even a member of the party.

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer evidence for me being an 'activist' ?
So no one can post a politically related thread unless they are neutral ? I stated the issues bedevilling labour v those affecting the tories.
I think many recent threads have been so supportive of the tories (funny that) it's a shock to the botssystem to see that not every one is taken in by them

[quote Kreuzberg]@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer evidence for me being an 'activist' ?
So no one can post a politically related thread unless they are neutral ? I stated the issues bedevilling labour v those affecting the tories.
I think many recent threads have been so supportive of the tories (funny that) it's a shock to the botssystem to see that not every one is taken in by them[/quote]
I don’t think you’re an activist

Never said you were

And its fine not to be neutral…never said it wasnt fine and you should be neutral

You asked posters what they were voting….said you didnt care if they were voting tory, called people who said they were lab/lib/greeen but now voting tories liars etc

People have posted in good faith

And ive just spotted your bot comment, so if anyone has called you an activist or a labour supporter thats an insult to you but its fine for you to call people bots and liars….just want to get the ground rules straight for your next thread

(Oh and by the way you wont find any ‘i love the tories’ posts from me cos I don’t….)

Labour.
The self iD bollocks will sort itself out in the end. I cannot abide the Tory greed.

This immature approach is why you will never win.....you need swing voters who have previously not voted Labour.

This. The arrogance on these threads is quite breathtaking. For the avoidance of doubt, who I vote for is up to me, not anyone else.

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer i didn't insult anyone. I said it's a big jump being a life long labour voter who is presumably in agreement with much of their ideology suddenly deciding to vote for the tory party on the basis of a single policy. A huge jump. No one insulted anyone by the way.
Love to know where the arrogance is. Lots of folk telling me that the tories are bound to win the next GE.
It's in the bag already. Now that is arrogance and presumption.

[quote Kreuzberg]@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer evidence for me being an 'activist' ?
So no one can post a politically related thread unless they are neutral ? I stated the issues bedevilling labour v those affecting the tories.
I think many recent threads have been so supportive of the tories (funny that) it's a shock to the botssystem to see that not every one is taken in by them[/quote]
Really? On mn?

I can think if a few posters who roundly get castigated for posts along those lines - that’s how little support there is their names stand out (I tend to avoid those threads as it’s so roundly a majority having a go)

Also the reason people are pointing it out to you is your op came across differently. Fine maybe a mistake in tone but that’s why. I read it initially thinking you had to make a difficult choice and wanted insight, then after a few posts it wasn’t the case. That is fine before you get defensive.

[quote Kreuzberg]@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer i didn't insult anyone. I said it's a big jump being a life long labour voter who is presumably in agreement with much of their ideology suddenly deciding to vote for the tory party on the basis of a single policy. A huge jump. No one insulted anyone by the way.
Love to know where the arrogance is. Lots of folk telling me that the tories are bound to win the next GE.
It's in the bag already. Now that is arrogance and presumption.[/quote]
Calling people liars and bots isnt insulting

Ok

Gotcha

[quote Parker231]@DownNative - my father (now retired) was an international banker - travelled and worked all over the world often with governments. He’s very astute- nothing naive about him.[/quote]
I'm sorry, but if he's not naive then he made a hyperbolic statement. Or you did on here rather than himself.

It's pretty clear there's a LOT of people in Thatcher's premiership who were truly wicked, evil people. You can start with Sinn Féin and the PIRA with their long catalogue of inhuman brutality towards Catholics and Protestants.

There's also the deplorable crimes of Dennis Nilsen.

And so on.

I'm afraid your hyperbole does not stand up to scrutiny and it speaks volumes you couldn't even support it very well. As such, hyperbole like yours can simply be dismissed very easily.

It certainly doesn't help your case with regards to the debate within this thread anyway. You're attempting the Ad Hominem Logical Fallacy here vis a vis Thatcher.