If there was a general election tomorrow and you were an ordinary woman on an average wage..

[Kreuzberg]

Who would you really vote for ? A party wishy washy on self ID and other trans issues with a gobby brash deputy leader who puts her foot in it and a lacking in charisma but well meaning leader or a party that implemented austerity, savage cuts to all public services, oversaw the deaths of 150,000, deceitful, pork barrel politics, corrupt, but with a teflon coated populist leader, plummy voiced slick mps and a less wishy washy stance on self ID (although not necessarily to be trusted)
What is most important to women earning £30,000 who are going to be hugely affected by the spiralling cost of living, struggling to heat their homes, feed their kids ? Issues very much the result of conservative policies like brexit, austerity etc or trans issues ?
I'm not pro self ID but not cat in hells chance I'd ever vote tory either. Their past record is not erased just because they say they know what a woman is. I'm addressing this to average earners too as they are on the front line.

@Cornettoninja

I do think that those who would otherwise lean towards labour (or any other party for that matter) but feel this issue is a barrier should consider emailing or tweeting their local party representative and explain exactly why they won’t be given their vote before spoiling their vote, making a protest vote or abstaining.

Why wait for an election to use your political voice? Change can be brought about at any time, making a statement like spoiling your vote or abstaining doesn’t give you the opportunity to make your reasoning clear and allow the opportunity for a representative to hear your concerns and consider other avenues. Preferably before we lock into a less than ideal government at the next general election. There’s two more years to lead representatives if the will of people is there.

Yes, I have done this at each election for several years now and also contacted them in between on numerous occasions.

Prior to May 5 I will once again be writing to my local candidates and asking them their views on these matters, whether they will commit to supporting women's rights, LGB rights and child safeguarding, and whether they will commit to fostering open debate without intimidation or threats to women.

I'm not in this for the shits and giggles.

And actually I do think MPs (Labour and Lib Dem and Green) have an obligation to speak up when others don't. They are publicly elected officials who make laws. They have an obligation to not just go along blindly with an ideology that makes no rational sense, is not evidence-based, and harms 50% of the population and undermines safeguarding for children. I don't think it's ok for an MP to keep under the radar in the way that many normal women are doing - because they have real power given to them by the electorate.

Exactly this.

James Kirkup from 4 years ago:

www.spectator.co.uk/article/even-our-mps-are-afraid-of-the-transgender-mob

[quote Dammitthisisshit]Boris’s PR team are listening!

www.bbc.com/sport/61012030.amp[/quote]
Who can blame him for taking advantage of such a wide open goal?

Labour Women's Declaration:

It's devastating for us to watch this happening in real time, to be shouting from the sidelines while @UKLabour goes into self-destruct mode on women's rights. We've offered countless times to meet @Keir_Starmer and help dig him out of hole he's dug. No response.

twitter.com/LabWomenDec/status/1511697783950032899

And actually I do think MPs (Labour and Lib Dem and Green) have an obligation to speak up when others don't. They are publicly elected officials who make laws. They have an obligation to not just go along blindly with an ideology that makes no rational sense, is not evidence-based, and harms 50% of the population and undermines safeguarding for children. I don't think it's ok for an MP to keep under the radar in the way that many normal women are doing - because they have real power given to them by the electorate

I agree, but at the same time they have an obligation to listen to the electorate at all times not just for elections, and if the majority of ‘credible’ voices they’re hearing are pushing one side of the argument that’s the one they’ll focus on. The trans lobby have plenty of evidence to present to back up their aims, whether you or I think it’s credible or solid doesn’t take away from the argument they’ve built unless an equally solid argument is shouted just as loudly.

I know a lot of people have been engaged politically with this issue but my belief is that there are also a lot of people who believe that spoiling a ballot, abstaining or casting their vote elsewhere is enough to convey their feelings on this issue when frankly it’s not if there isn’t enough open support. In truth that goes for a lot of political engagement, people put so much weight on the physical act of voting when actually, for change to occur there needs to be active pressure and demands even at a low level like writing an email.

Not everyone will be able or want to be open about it, but those that can and want to be should because it’s important. Not just about this, about anything someone has a strong belief in, reliance on participating in social media and then casting a vote has very limited influence on party politics and perhaps just as importantly the tone the media picks up on and chases.

Labour - they are the only party who have any hope of knocking that bastard Johnson off his throne.

In an ideal world, I strongly believe that Labour, Lib Dem and Green need to unite and find their common ground in order to put up a credible competition. Join forces, decide on the convictions they want to prioritise and then go all out on those. I'm disappointed in Starmer as leader of the opposition, it's true, but I think he's honest and human, neither of which I believe about Johnson, or any of the Tories.

SNP allll the live long day.

@HRTQueen

Annabelle69 I wonder how many are felling the same way. Some of my friends are

It’s not a criticism. The discussion of women’s rights being eroded has moved on from social media. It took the popular press for it to be this way and yes that means the DM. Im personally happy with that the more people are aware the better

That Labour are not able to deal with the issue with straightforward answers the straightforward questions is down to the party to sort out

I don't know a single woman who would vote Labour, and I have a varied social circle. Thing is, a lot of people won't take the next leap and admit out loud they're voting Conservative instead. Its like a dirty secret. It happens at every election, and you'd think looking at echo chamber social media that Labour will landslide it, and they lose miserably instead. I think it may be worse for Labour next time due to the women's rights issue.

It is down to the party to sort out, but the weaker Labour become, the more they allow the Tories to run riot. Which makes me doubly annoyed at Labour.

Why would people be embarrassed about voting for the conservatives ? I don't recognise that. On MN posters are upfront about it, almost gleefully hoping that labour will lose another GE to teach them a lesson. That I don't understand.

@Kreuzberg

Why would people be embarrassed about voting for the conservatives ? I don't recognise that. On MN posters are upfront about it, almost gleefully hoping that labour will lose another GE to teach them a lesson. That I don't understand.

I'm not embarrassed to admit I vote Tory. As current women's rights policies stand, and Labour politicians mumbling about women with penises, I'd be excruitiatingly embarrassed to vote Labour.

My point was opinion polls and social media tell a very different story to actual election results, which is why I think a lot less people are open about voting Tory than results suggest.

@Travis1

SNP allll the live long day.

Genuinely interested in your reasoning

@Cornettoninja

And actually I do think MPs (Labour and Lib Dem and Green) have an obligation to speak up when others don't. They are publicly elected officials who make laws. They have an obligation to not just go along blindly with an ideology that makes no rational sense, is not evidence-based, and harms 50% of the population and undermines safeguarding for children. I don't think it's ok for an MP to keep under the radar in the way that many normal women are doing - because they have real power given to them by the electorate

I agree, but at the same time they have an obligation to listen to the electorate at all times not just for elections, and if the majority of ‘credible’ voices they’re hearing are pushing one side of the argument that’s the one they’ll focus on. The trans lobby have plenty of evidence to present to back up their aims, whether you or I think it’s credible or solid doesn’t take away from the argument they’ve built unless an equally solid argument is shouted just as loudly.

I know a lot of people have been engaged politically with this issue but my belief is that there are also a lot of people who believe that spoiling a ballot, abstaining or casting their vote elsewhere is enough to convey their feelings on this issue when frankly it’s not if there isn’t enough open support. In truth that goes for a lot of political engagement, people put so much weight on the physical act of voting when actually, for change to occur there needs to be active pressure and demands even at a low level like writing an email.

Not everyone will be able or want to be open about it, but those that can and want to be should because it’s important. Not just about this, about anything someone has a strong belief in, reliance on participating in social media and then casting a vote has very limited influence on party politics and perhaps just as importantly the tone the media picks up on and chases.

My belief is you don't know what you are talking about.

The lazy option is to just bin your polling card while muttering 'fuck the lot of them' and give the election no further thought.

Actually getting up, going out to your local polling station, confirming your name and address to the volunteer, going into a booth and spoiling your ballot, coming out and posting it in the box, is not the lazy option.

Neither is it the first option for the vast, vast majority of women who do that.

Women who actually bother to go out and spoil their ballot are almost always already highly politically engaged. We've already done our best to talk to the candidates, to write to our representatives and to advocate everywhere we can without risking our jobs, physical safety etc. Sometimes we risk those too.

For many of us, it's only the knowledge that our foremothers fought for our right to vote that keeps us turning out to do this each time, instead of just binning the card.

And you ask us if we've thought of writing to our MP??

The trans lobby have plenty of evidence to present to back up their aims

Do they really?

@LangClegsInSpace yes of course you’re absolutely right, political engagement and election turnouts are sky high in this country. I’m clearly outlining how to suck eggs…

….Or perhaps my words aren’t aimed at people already communicating with their representatives? You appear to be talking on behalf of a lot of people; ‘Women who actually bother to go out and spoil their ballot are almost always already highly politically engaged’ the women you know might be but it isn’t universal, I know plenty of women (and men) who do nothing to communicate why they’re spoiling their vote.

Spoiling your ballot is a protest, but a silent one that doesn’t count for much but a general disapproval. That could be down to management of the economy, immigration policies, women’s rights, environmental concerns etc. it’s handing responsibility to politicians to determine exactly why your ballot is spoiled. There may be a cursory review of spoiled ballots but it’s limited in its impact precisely because politicians are left free to interpret it.

Representation needs two way communication not just hanging around until someone turns up that says something you like. Elections are part of a process, not the whole thing and there’s no compulsion to wait to have a ballot in front of you to engage in having a voice in the issue if it’s important to you.

The trans lobby have plenty of evidence to present to back up their aims

Do they really?

Selective quoting is tiresome and a hack tactic.

I specifically wrote that they can present evidence to back up their argument and that evidence to the contrary needs to be presented just as loudly and widely. I didn’t allude to the truth or quality of evidence either side use.

Tory are the only people interested in womans rights.
Labour are happy to walk all over women, and have never had a female leader - maybe they'll end up with a man in a skirt - would that count as a female leader?

I’m not embarrassed to vote Tory. A bit surprised maybe.

@Kreuzberg

Why would people be embarrassed about voting for the conservatives ? I don't recognise that. On MN posters are upfront about it, almost gleefully hoping that labour will lose another GE to teach them a lesson. That I don't understand.

A lot of posters don’t say anything because of the abuse they get if they do

Plus a lot stay quiet because they don’t want to say they vote tory on a thread full of how disgusting and stupid tory voters are

Women's rights and safeguarding of children are the most important thing to me, hands down, but I've been thinking a lot about whether I'd vote Labour if their behaviour was about another issue.

Like for example, grass of the green variety. Say a very influential and well funded lobby group persuaded the Labour elite that it was progressive to say grass was pink, because those people truly saw grass as pink and believed that everyone else should agree with them. They went around saying it and told everyone who didn't agree (because of the evidence of their own eyes) that they were a bigot. Women got fired for saying grass was green, and expelled from the Labour party.

I think I'd still be really quite worried and inclined to vote Tory. The Tories are quite blatantly greedy and out for themselves but they're not forcing me to say grass is pink when I can see it's green and slandering me, labelling me and deriding me for saying what I see. Telling me the pinkgrassists viewpoint of the world is the only truly valid viewpoint and I'm not being kind by not going along with it. That what they think is essentially far more important than what everyone else thinks.

I can see many people for whom English isn't a first language or non neurotypical people really struggle with the cognitive dissonance of saying grass is pink when they see it as green. The insistence on saying grass is pink and cries of 'bigot' 'grassphobe' 'hate crime' when someone says grass is green in front of those who think it's pink looks a lot like bullying.

In this scenario it doesn't even affect my rights beyond my right of free speech and to say what I see. But that's important in a democracy.

Ultimately if Labour are willing to just ignore what the vast majority of humans see as reality on this issue, they'd do it on another, and that should worry us.

Then you have Boris 'opportunist' Johnson. Yes, I suspect he didn't really believe in Brexit but he - rightly as it turned out - realised the majority wanted it. Frankly someone who's a populist and blows with the wind of public opinion is IMO better than someone who demands that everyone agrees that 2+2=5. Because that's Orwellian.

Are we allowed to call Starmer a "bastard" (assuming people above are allowed to call Johnson one on MN under the rules)? Does it work both ways? Can we have Labour "scum" used on MN as much as Tory "scum"?)

Democracy is on its knees. The Tories have privatised, changed laws, inflicted so much economic damage with their disaster capitalist policies that it no longer will matter who's in power. The real power is in the hand of the worlds rich, irrespective of nationality or political party. Without proportional representation any election is a sham an illusion to fool us into thinking this is a democratic country.

Divisive Wokery is a manipulation used by the powerful to break opposition. Watch out, it's a trap to divide and rule.

Democracy is on its knees

I thought Labour were going give the Tories a thrashing in the local elections

I guess not now as people may choose to vote differently

Call people what you like @xenia, you have the absolute freedom and right to set a tone however you see fit. You don’t have to ask permission do you?

Or are you trying to make a PA point?

I don't know what PA means in that context, but I thought we were not supposed to use abusive terms on MN.

I don't agree that our democracy is on its knees in the West. Instead the nations of freedom and democracy are thriving and almost as one in their condemnation of states such as Russia at present. It is very strong indeed.

PA passive aggressive - make your point instead of dancing around it with ‘thought provoking’ examples. If you don’t like the language someone is using then report it and let MN decide.

Democracy is on its knees. Without proportional representation any election is a sham an illusion to fool us into thinking this is a democratic country.

There'll be a GE in two years an people can vote how they see fit. That is democracy. As for PR, there was a free vote on it 10 years ago and the country rejected it. Democracy in action. Just because you don't agree with the result, it doesn't mean the result wasn't democratically obtained.