If there was a general election tomorrow and you were an ordinary woman on an average wage..

[Kreuzberg]

Who would you really vote for ? A party wishy washy on self ID and other trans issues with a gobby brash deputy leader who puts her foot in it and a lacking in charisma but well meaning leader or a party that implemented austerity, savage cuts to all public services, oversaw the deaths of 150,000, deceitful, pork barrel politics, corrupt, but with a teflon coated populist leader, plummy voiced slick mps and a less wishy washy stance on self ID (although not necessarily to be trusted)
What is most important to women earning £30,000 who are going to be hugely affected by the spiralling cost of living, struggling to heat their homes, feed their kids ? Issues very much the result of conservative policies like brexit, austerity etc or trans issues ?
I'm not pro self ID but not cat in hells chance I'd ever vote tory either. Their past record is not erased just because they say they know what a woman is. I'm addressing this to average earners too as they are on the front line.

@LittleWhingingWoman

At what point did I say all women? I said a sizeable number of women. Did you not understand?

I understand that a peer reviewed paper could support your view. If you had one? Rabbit holes are easy to fall down and anyone on an anonymous forum can claim to be anyone. Logic

The only paper that matters are the votes.

Let's see what happens at the elections.

@LittleWhingingWoman

The only paper that matters are the votes.

Let's see what happens at the elections.

That is a no then. So maybe stop saying most women, some women...etc. It is your opinion. Based on your view. That is fine but it really not acceptable to claim that more than you or your echo chamber hold that opinion. Is it?

Why are you getting so upset about being told that your assertion that the women who no longer want to vote Labour are fascist maybe?) is wrong.

Is that what you said - let's look shall we?

"It is so often the 'anti trans lobby' Crypto feminist (facist maybe?) lovers who bang on about never labour. Ignoring the poor for their insatiable hunger for whatever the fuck they are banging on about.....never mind the poor huh? We can feed them on the hate"

So often? Do you have a peer reviewed wanky academic paper to back this up or are you talking out of your penis?

Whilst Student Grant runs off to try and find an academic paper that calls mothers fascists, I'm going to bed.

😂

@LittleWhingingWoman

"AhNowTed
You know, I'm going to say it.

I'm so annoyed and frustrated at obvious Tory voters, who would vote Tory anyway, using this trope, as if they cared a jot for women's rights.

And attack me all you like, but after 12 years of this lying, charlatan, so called government, making absolute fools of us all, and robbing us blind to the benefit of their mates, how you could blithely say you'd vote for them because "you know, women" makes me sick to the stomach.

Fucking own the fact. You're a Tory. Stop hiding behind womens rights, because let's be honest you'd vote for them regardless anyway.

I can understand why, you might think this but I'm afraid you are wrong.
Some of the first women who were alerted to the issues around this were the ones in guess what? Safeguarding jobs. And why would that be? Because these are the women who are trained to lookout for loopholes that allowed predatory people - the majority of which are male, to exploit in order to gain access to vulnerable members of society, especially children.

A sizeable number of these women are labour voters.

It's very odd that you wouldn't realise this."

Sorry I am lost.

I think you're saying..

Women who were initially alerted to issues [as yet unspecified] were in safeguarding jobs.

Them that the majority of these people they were alerted to were male.

And that the people making these decisions are Labour voters.

Have I got that right?

Can you provide an iota of proof of any of this?

I am that woman.

The self ID issue and not being able to define a woman is something I find hugely worrying about Labour and for this alone, I couldn't vote for them.

I feel the tories really are hanging the majority of Brits out to dry at the moment and come Christmas, those earning an average wage will be in an awful position financially. They do not look out for the majority of this country.

I don't think the Tories did a great job regarding Covid but I don't think Labour would have done any better either.

So, I'm torn. But my feeling is that stopping the erasure of women is more important long term as somewhere along the lines, the tories will have to offer some sort of financial assistance. So then I'd have to vote conservative

you think red wall areas voted for the tories because they liked them ? Brexit was the reason. Who cares whether you vote for the tories?

No I think red wall areas voted for Conservatives because Labour weren't listening to them. I'd recommend Despised: Why the Modern Left Loathes the Working Class by Paul Embery for a trade unionists take on his. Paul Embery is not alone in observing and commenting on the LP's contempt for, what was, its core voter base.

You clearly do care if I vote Tory and assumed I was wracked with guilt for doing so. I refuse to make anyone feel guilty for their voting choices. Some people will always vote for one particular party no matter what they do but many people are open to persuasion. If Labour want to win then they need to convince voters they have something better to offer. Elections are lost not won and Labour are not just losing they are gift wrapping a win to the Conservatives by sounding more like the nasty party than the nasty party. You don't have to participate in the unpleasantness but, like many others, I suspect it gives you a warm glow of moral superiority.

So, I'm torn. But my feeling is that stopping the erasure of women is more important long term as somewhere along the lines, the tories will have to offer some sort of financial assistance. So then I'd have to vote conservative sad

The same tories which had no increase in welfare benefits for 10 years because of austerity and have cut services to the bone?

The same tories who had to be shamed by a footballer to continue to provide school holiday assistance to kids on free school meals?

If they get in for another term it will be even more dire for vulnerable people.

For those saying concerns over Labour's inability to identify a woman are single issue politics, no they aren't.

We've fought for centuries for women's rights. For the chance to be safe, to be legally entitled to be treated as equal to men.

Labour's fudging of this issue risks undoing a hundred years work. It is so fundamental, so damaging. How can people be so blind.

The people insulting Tory voters sound exactly the same as the people who insulted people who said they wanted Brexit, right down to the language and tone. So full of rage that people have their own opinions.

Labour will not win the next election because most people don't want a Labour government.

I'm voting Tory, and the insults and emotional blackmail that will inevitably come my way don't bother me in the slightest. I'm not in your echo chamber, but I am in the majority group.

Would it be easier to protest against austerity and cuts with the tories in, or to protest against the destruction of women's rights with labour in?
I feel like labour might cave easier than the tories so I'd have to vote labour.

Labour here but my vote counts for absolutely nothing where I live. Our MP is Liz Truss☹️

In wales we already have a labour government and its no difference to a tory one.

Plaid cymru is a big no for me, so i vote independence. Our local candidate does a lot for the local community.

Tory.

I'd never vote Labour after what Tony Blair did to the country, and they just run us into recession. Plus they don't recognise women.

British voting process is you vote for your local MP not the leader. We’re confusing American politics with British.

I’m considering what my local candidates are offering. If none have any credibility will spoil the vote. So still an active participant in the democratic process.

Labour. Always have, always will. I don't feel that trans people being able to self ID eradicates my womanhood in any way so that doesn't bother me.

@Waxonwaxoff0

Labour. Always have, always will. I don't feel that trans people being able to self ID eradicates my womanhood in any way so that doesn't bother me.

It's not about it eradicating your womanhood. It's about allowing men into womens intimate spaces. The same spaces that girls and elderly women are in in. It's about you saying it's ok for an adult man to be in the same changing rooms as my 14 year old daughter.

If its such a simple thing for people who are unsure or wary about voting Labour re self ID and we should just get on with it and ignore our concerns as 'come on its not such a big thing/important (you evil terfs etc)' why isn't it going the other way, why aren't Labour saying 'let's NOT look at self ID/consider it, its not important'?

Agreeing with posters who are saying anything but SNP where we are.

But I mean, this whole thread is a moot point, when have Labour been politically astute enough to gain a majority? 20+ years ago? They certainly aren't able to now - losing generations-old seats and blaming the voters for being stupid instead of recognising how deeply ineffectual and unelectable they are. I'm no tory voter but Labour have let us down in all areas and I am angry about it.

This is exactly how I feel. I've voted Conservative in the past but cannot vote for this bunch of idiots. David Cameron, even Theresa May were both a world away from Boris Johnson.

But I'm angry that in the face of such incompetence Labour still appear totally unelectable. They haven't listened to voters or learned anything from the last election and I'm not even disappointed, I'm furious about it!

I've considered spoiling my ballot for the first time ever but I just can't bring myself to do it so I'll be thoroughly researching the local candidates and voting for whichever one seems the most sensible.

@LittleWhingingWoman what changing rooms? Changing rooms have individual cubicles, no? To be honest I haven't used a changing room in years, I just try stuff on at home.

Labour. I will not vote conservative after what they have done to this country.

[quote Waxonwaxoff0]@LittleWhingingWoman what changing rooms? Changing rooms have individual cubicles, no? To be honest I haven't used a changing room in years, I just try stuff on at home.[/quote]

[quote Waxonwaxoff0]@LittleWhingingWoman what changing rooms? Changing rooms have individual cubicles, no? To be honest I haven't used a changing room in years, I just try stuff on at home.[/quote]
Ok how about single sex hospital wards?

Labour or lib dems.