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Ukraine Invasion Part 18

999 replies

Ijsbear · 02/04/2022 14:10

Place for information, discussion, points of view, useful links and above all, a hope that this sovereign land can regain its freedom.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
Motorina · 05/04/2022 09:27

Maybe if the politicians are too slow then consumers need to boycott and cripple the Russian economy ourselves

Difficult. The majority of Russian exports are things that individual consumers don't buy. Oil, gas, wheat, iron, nickle, other metals, fertilizers... The materials to make your batteries or your loaf of bread may well come from Russia, but the end goods aren't Russian products. How do you boycott them meaninfully?

notimagain · 05/04/2022 09:27

I don't know why Le Pen is proving more popular now but she is still a long way back in the polls and is still likely to lose in the 2nd round vote

She is not a long way back now according to the polling the likes of BFM are reporting on…it’s getting horribly close to being within margin of error territory, Macron v Le Pen in both first and presumed second rounds

One of the reasons it has tightened up is she has managed to glean votes from both Zemmour and Pecresse supporters as their campaigns have faltered in the last month or so.

RedToothBrush · 05/04/2022 09:43

thecritic.co.uk/is-putins-war-turning-genocidal/
Is Putin’s war turning genocidal?
Campaign Diary: Evidence of Russian war crimes found in Bucha

His July 2021 fable, more Brothers Grimm than Encyclopaedia Britannica, could almost have been lifted out of Mein Kampf, with its mentions of destiny, the construction of false history, ethnicity of nations and regaining territories. Even Putin’s language imitates that of Hitler’s polemical work. Its purpose is the same: to prepare his domestic audience for the reunification of Ukraine, and who knows where else, with the Greater Russian Rei… sorry, Federation.

And

On 3 April, Ukraine’s Deputy Prime Minister, Iryna Vereshchuk, listed 11 mayors of towns and cities who had been kidnapped and whisked away. She announced that Olga Sukhenko, mayor of Motyjin (west of Kyiv), along with her husband and son, had been “killed in captivity” by Russian soldiers after their abduction on 26 March. The mayors have left behind communities where schools, universities and technical colleges have been attacked; where libraries have been burned; shopping centres and markets hit by missiles; sports centres and theatres bombed. CCTV cameras have captured fuel depots in flames, shops being looted, civilians and farmyards stripped bare of livestock and machinery.

And

The testimony of the mayor of the city of Chernihiv, Vladyslav Atroshenko, hints at what is taking place. “They are bombing residential areas from low altitude in absolutely clear weather and deliberately destroying our civilian infrastructure,” he told a Ukrainian news channel. “Schools, kindergartens, residential buildings and even the local football stadium have all been hit.”

And

The numbers of cultural targets destroyed, and the methodology of deportations is not spontaneous.

And

History tells us that such tragedies are not accidents, but involve planning, and direction from the top. The perpetrators need to be brainwashed and reassured of their immunity from prosecution, that what they are doing is a service for their state. It is no accident that the Russian army was followed into Ukraine by thousands of OMON (an acronym that translates as “Special Purpose Mobile Unit”) riot police.

They sound chillingly similar in name and purpose to the Einsatzgruppen (meaning “deployment groups”), the Nazi killing squads that roamed behind the lines of the Eastern Front in the 1940s. OMON is part of the Rosgvardiya, Russia’s National Guard, which reports directly to President Putin. It is OMON that has been kidnapping mayors, processing forced evacuees and policing newly-occupied towns. On 9 March in Kherson, it was Rosgvardyia units that moved in to beat and arrest an estimated 400 residents protesting against the Russian occupation. They are the Kremlin’s Gestapo.

And

The only buildings that appear to have been spared are churches. Presumably this is because Archbishop Kirill — Patriarch of Moscow and all Rus, and Primate of the Russian Orthodox Church — is backing Moscow’s “holy war” and has eyes on reclaiming his breakaway brethren and their places of worship. The Kyiv-based Orthodox Church of Ukraine, led by Metropolitan Epiphanius, broke away from its parent in Moscow and was officially recognised at an international synod in 2018. While Kirill may be a pawn in Putin’s plans for territorial aggrandisement, Putin is equally a pawn in the Patriarch’s holy war. In a very characteristic Eastern Orthodox spat, Kirill delivered a sermon on 6 March, observing that Russia’s occupation of “evil” Ukraine was part of a larger “metaphysical struggle” against “immoral Western values”.

And

More recently, on 23 March, Beth Van Schaack, the US Ambassador at Large for Global Criminal Justice, assessed that Russia “was committing war crimes in Ukraine”, an accusation echoed by Joe Biden. With experience of similar crimes committed in Rwanda (where I was connected with the judicial process) and Bosnia (which I witnessed as part of the peace keeping force), the prosecutors know what to look for, and already have more than a suspicion that Russia’s abuses in Ukraine are not the result of accidental shelling or rogue soldiery. They think this is a systematic pattern, authorised and encouraged from the very top — by the man who has intensely studied what happened in the Soviet Union during the Great Patriotic War.

RTB: There is no way, any country with good satellite technology and a good intelligence organisation didn't know what Russia was doing from very early on. No way. It was systematic. It was planned. It had a clear identifiable pattern which mirrored similar situations in both the recent and longer term history of the 20th and 21st Century.

They have the knowledge of history and the experience and skills of dealing with crimes of this nature to know. It is not a unique event we don't understand. This is well studied even by members of wider society - its not niche.

Instead, they have sat behind public opinion or simply sat and watched rather than driving it. They didn't care until the media showed up and made it unavoidable as a subject. Because of a 'its not my problem' / 'I can bury my head in the sand' type attitude.

You can understand why the Polish are also so angry. Just about everyone in Poland will know someone personally directly affected by now. And with that they knew what was happening and could see the non-committal can't be arsed attitudes of others.

Its not leadership. Its abdication of responsibility. Its not denial but its certainly not dealing with reality head on either.

It does not put their own citizens in a position which is better to avoid the subject: indeed quite the opposite.

It makes me incredibly angry. It outright apathy and almost like the response of a deer transfixed in the headlights of oncoming traffic.

I can't imagine how Zelensky feels with all the platitudes tbh. He must feel utterly utterly betrayed. And yet he gets it and why he has to believe in the ideals and why he has to keep persuing them.

There is one last paragraph in this article I want to share though:

On 31 March the Russian embassy noted with fury that one of the World War II tanks on the Soviet War Memorial in central Berlin had been covered with a Ukrainian flag. Russian Ambassador Sergei Nechaev was particularly strident in his demand that the flag be removed, and the perpetrators arrested. His Excellency, already under the spotlight after one of his diplomats “carelessly fell” from a top floor window of his embassy last year, was said to be incandescent at the Berlin authorities’ reply: “As the tank was a T-34, which was developed in the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv, we see no reason to do anything.”

DFOD · 05/04/2022 09:50

@Motorina

Maybe if the politicians are too slow then consumers need to boycott and cripple the Russian economy ourselves

Difficult. The majority of Russian exports are things that individual consumers don't buy. Oil, gas, wheat, iron, nickle, other metals, fertilizers... The materials to make your batteries or your loaf of bread may well come from Russia, but the end goods aren't Russian products. How do you boycott them meaninfully?

By demanding transparency from the manufacturers and retailers so that we have a choice to eat the bread that is funding soldier’s to murder and rape. Forcing them to find other suppliers - of course we will take the likely take a hit of increased costs in the short term.
RedToothBrush · 05/04/2022 09:51

@DFOD

The sanctions are not yet biting and not sure that the current ones will ever trump the fake news on the Russian side. The life in Moscow article on the previous thread showed that they were barely noticeable - they are a long way from any impact or civil unrest that will have an impact such as we have seen in Sri Lanka.

Earlier post where Air B n B have just this weekend stopped trading (takes a genocide and rape and murder of toddlers to revisit your business plan) is a disgrace.

Maybe if the politicians are too slow then consumers need to boycott and cripple the Russian economy ourselves

The ruble is still at pre war levels. A lot of it is to do with still buying fuel. This has been a lot better for Russia than was anticipated and hoped by the West.

Sanctions are taking longer to kick in for that reason. This buys Russia time and the ability to both find ways to bypass sanctions and also persist with the special operation rather than war narrative.

It gives them sufficient time to brainwash the population to believe that what is about to happen is necessary. It gives them time to manage the problem domestically better. Ironically it also prolongs economic problems for the west too.

Time isn't on Ukrainians side. Every day extra equals more Ukrainian deaths.

DGRossetti · 05/04/2022 09:53

If people in the UK want to avoid Russian products, maybe not vote Tory ?

toastfiend · 05/04/2022 09:56

It does to me because military people or people who have studied warfare like BreadinCaptivity, have training and often experience and more awareness of what's actually possible and isn't. Someone like Bread is trained in seeing the patterns of conflict and the historical results of going into conflict in a number of different situations and the after-conflict consequences.

Absolutely, which is why I cited my DH's (currently serving, spent an extensive amount of time - both professional and personal - studying warfare) opinion, when, ordinarily, I would raise an eyebrow at anyone thinking "well my husband says" added any credibility to what they were saying.

Helocariad · 05/04/2022 10:04

@DGRossetti

If people in the UK want to avoid Russian products, maybe not vote Tory ?
This
Ijsbear · 05/04/2022 10:08

Putin is good at stoking that nuclear fear.

And it's been a long time since war has been so close as it is to UK borders / within Europe. A whole generation has grown up since the war in the former Yugoslavia.

OP posts:
ClaudineClare · 05/04/2022 10:11

@DGRossetti

If people in the UK want to avoid Russian products, maybe not vote Tory ?
Yep. The May local elections will be interesting.
jgw1 · 05/04/2022 10:16

@DGRossetti

If people in the UK want to avoid Russian products, maybe not vote Tory ?
But Jeremy Corbyn.
DuncinToffee · 05/04/2022 10:19

Julian Röpcke

Russian forces are quickly advancing in #Kharkiv oblast, the Ukrainian general staff reports, trying to surround the remaining Ukrainian forces in Donbas.
Kramatorsk and Sloviansk are under intense threat of being encircled now.

twitter.com/julianroepcke/status/1511266094467723268?s=21

PaperTyger · 05/04/2022 10:22

Toast , we all seem like educated intelligent people on here, I think we are beyond the point of looking at one poster = the forces are baying for war and so what if they are or aren't.

Claudine's yes we do but in this case specifically we do because it's so soon after Hitler and he's behaved as he wanted right under our noses.
We shouldn't have watched all his other atrocities : caveat Syria was far more complicated of course and intervention there was difficult.

We shouldn't have sat and watched that build up peace keeping forces should have gone in to hold that's border and protect Nuclear sites.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 05/04/2022 10:29

They are playing a dangerous game. Putins paranoia will have twigged this is what they are doing ... maybe they think they can push him so far into a corner he'll squeak ?

I don't think they are playing a dangerous game, I actually think they are very measured in their response. That fence is no necessarily a bad thing.

The thing is though that the balance of power is shifting. Russia is weakening, China is getting stronger and we, the West are sowing the seeds of future problems. I think we miscalculated. We backed Ukraine, pushed Russia, and are now weakening Russia. We needed Russia to balance China, because out next problem will be there.

MagicFox · 05/04/2022 10:32

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

They are playing a dangerous game. Putins paranoia will have twigged this is what they are doing ... maybe they think they can push him so far into a corner he'll squeak ?

I don't think they are playing a dangerous game, I actually think they are very measured in their response. That fence is no necessarily a bad thing.

The thing is though that the balance of power is shifting. Russia is weakening, China is getting stronger and we, the West are sowing the seeds of future problems. I think we miscalculated. We backed Ukraine, pushed Russia, and are now weakening Russia. We needed Russia to balance China, because out next problem will be there.

What kind of problem do you mean?

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 05/04/2022 10:33

But Jeremy Corbyn

You keep posting the same thing, jgw1.

It was mildly funny the first time, but what's the point of posting it again?

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 05/04/2022 10:34

A strong China? Taiwan, to start with?

TiddyTidTwo · 05/04/2022 10:36

Yes I'm worried about Taiwan.

DGRossetti · 05/04/2022 10:38

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

But Jeremy Corbyn

You keep posting the same thing, jgw1.

It was mildly funny the first time, but what's the point of posting it again?

Because it's why we're here. Saddled with the most despotic, corrupt, incompetent and greedy government in living memory. Bought here by people who found thinking harder than soundbites.
prettybird · 05/04/2022 10:40

To be fair on jgw1 he's being facetious and just repeating the fallacious justification that much of the MSM and a proportion of the electorate used for supporting BJ and the Conservatives. Hmm

But Jeremy Corbyn Confused

There is a still an undercurrent of that Sad

UltimateFoole · 05/04/2022 10:42

Free resources here on dealing with trauma and PTSD: translated into Ukrainian, Polish, Russian and English. Created by psychologists.

www.psychologytools.com/articles/free-ukrainian-translations-of-trauma-and-ptsd-psychoeducational-resources/?fbclid=IwAR39Je5L5XzJMK0rASEqEQ1gya7Gk-31iQXXv-kgshPoijOK9E6fHiYHM-k

I remember there was discussion on these threads recently about the psychological and emotional needs of refugees from Ukraine.

jgw1 · 05/04/2022 10:43

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

But Jeremy Corbyn

You keep posting the same thing, jgw1.

It was mildly funny the first time, but what's the point of posting it again?

That's what one is meant to do with slogans isn't it. As far as I can tell the only defence of much of what our current Prime Minister has done is "but Jeremy Corbyn".
Wrongkindofovercoat · 05/04/2022 10:47

But Jeremy Corbyn

But Jeremy Corbyn is a man, far better to find a woman to blame the war on, Merkel seems to be a popular choice ?

PippinStar · 05/04/2022 10:48

Thanks @UltimateFoole, I will check those out! I’m a MH professional and I’m getting a lot of emails this past week about training to help work with Ukrainian refugees. But still not noticing anything for the public, which there needs to be. I’ve had to help a couple of people realise that they are too traumatised themselves to take in other potentially traumatised people. Scary.