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Ukraine Invasion Part 18

999 replies

Ijsbear · 02/04/2022 14:10

Place for information, discussion, points of view, useful links and above all, a hope that this sovereign land can regain its freedom.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
PaperTyger · 04/04/2022 20:46

The masses are passive Nazis who have supported and indulged the elites Nazi.

Caveat....

Not sure of the integrity of this information but supposed to be from Russia media pundit " what Russia should do with Ukraine" timofee Sergey something

Ijsbear · 04/04/2022 20:47

^OSINTtechnical
@Osinttechnical
· 33m
First major surrender of Ukrainian forces in Mariupol, reportedly 267 marines.^

OP posts:
Hillsmakeyoustrong · 04/04/2022 20:47

@Alexandra2001 agree with all your points.

PaperTyger · 04/04/2022 20:47

Oh no!!!!

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 04/04/2022 20:53

That is terrible news.

JacquelineCarlyle · 04/04/2022 20:57

[quote Alexandra2001]@Hillsmakeyoustrong In earlier threads i wanted peace with Putin because of how Russia conducts war, attrition and with zero regard for civilians.

Once he invaded, we have not done enough and have been fearful of Putins threats, understandable but as you say, if we really believe our own argument not to intervene, then this also applies if Russia invades a NATO country... why risk nuclear war over little ole Latvia ?

We cannot undo Bucha or Mariupol but we can stop it happening in Odesa and i would like to see NATO regain access to the Black Sea and give Ukraine its ports back, if that means confrontation with Russia's navy, so be it, we cannot allow rogue states to close off international waters.[/quote]
I completely agree - it's like we've learnt nothing from history and how appeasement doesn't work with people like Putin.

Alexandra2001 · 04/04/2022 20:59

The people's the leaders as well whom you seem so scared to criticize ( except Boris) that includes all the ones who still legitimised him after Crimea and all his atrocities

Sorry but the UK including Bojo has been one of the main apologists for Putin in Georgia, Crimea and Syria....

London didn't get to be Londongrad because of the UK's strong opposition to Putin.

BJ is fantastic at seeing which way the public mood is going, then running out front shouting "Follow me!" (This was Michael Heseltines assessment of BJ)

Plus of course, BJ did more to send a "How weak is Europe..." message to Putin by carrying out his stated aim to try and break up the EU, through Brexit.

So whilst BJ is having a bit of Road to Damascus moment, he (and his party) really is one of the prime movers that enabled Putin in the first place.

Appreciate that may not be what Tory voters want to hear but truth hurts n all that...

jgw1 · 04/04/2022 21:01

@Alexandra2001

The people's the leaders as well whom you seem so scared to criticize ( except Boris) that includes all the ones who still legitimised him after Crimea and all his atrocities

Sorry but the UK including Bojo has been one of the main apologists for Putin in Georgia, Crimea and Syria....

London didn't get to be Londongrad because of the UK's strong opposition to Putin.

BJ is fantastic at seeing which way the public mood is going, then running out front shouting "Follow me!" (This was Michael Heseltines assessment of BJ)

Plus of course, BJ did more to send a "How weak is Europe..." message to Putin by carrying out his stated aim to try and break up the EU, through Brexit.

So whilst BJ is having a bit of Road to Damascus moment, he (and his party) really is one of the prime movers that enabled Putin in the first place.

Appreciate that may not be what Tory voters want to hear but truth hurts n all that...

But Jeremy Corbyn.
blueshoes · 04/04/2022 21:01

@Ijsbear

^OSINTtechnical *@Osinttechnical* · 33m First major surrender of Ukrainian forces in Mariupol, reportedly 267 marines.^
This is sickening news. It does not bear to think what will happen to these 267 Ukrainian marines.
Alexandra2001 · 04/04/2022 21:02

.... i'd add that childish "Your too scared..." insults don't really work with me, i just don't go in for attacking leaders who i know little about and whom don't have the luxury of NS oil and gas.

Alexandra2001 · 04/04/2022 21:03

@jgw1 not forgetting Diane Abbott.

Ijsbear · 04/04/2022 21:04

If they are lucky they will be the show-surrenderers who will be treated well.

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ScrollingLeaves · 04/04/2022 21:04

@Ijsbear

^OSINTtechnical
@Osinttechnical
· 33m
First major surrender of Ukrainian forces in Mariupol, reportedly 267 marines.

Terrible, terrible news.

Ijsbear · 04/04/2022 21:11

I wonder what China's reaction is to the news from Bucha and Borodyanka.

The analysts have been saying for a couple of weeks that Mariupol will fall within days. They've fought like supermen to keep going this long.

God be with Ukraine. God be with Ukraine.

OP posts:
MagicFox · 04/04/2022 21:12

@Ijsbear

I wonder what China's reaction is to the news from Bucha and Borodyanka.

The analysts have been saying for a couple of weeks that Mariupol will fall within days. They've fought like supermen to keep going this long.

God be with Ukraine. God be with Ukraine.

It's been to parrot what Russia are saying

Wannago · 04/04/2022 21:14

[quote PerkingFaintly]I certainly care about Syria and what has been done to people there.

One of the major differences between what's happening in Ukraine and what's happening in Syria is that Ukraine has a democratically elected government which opposes the Russian invasion. The Syrian government, on the other hand, invited the Russians in and their atrocities were carried out with its complicity.

"The Syrian civil war [...] is an ongoing multi-sided civil war in Syria fought between the Syrian Arab Republic led by Syrian president Bashar al-Assad (supported by domestic and foreign allies) and various domestic and foreign forces that oppose both the Syrian government and each other, in varying combinations."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war

Syria's head of state, Assad, already ran a harsh regime which prompted anti-government demonstrations in 2011 as part of the Arab Spring. Out of that grew a civil war which has been joined by a large number of outside groups, including Da'esh against Assad, and Russia for Assad at his request.

Syria is a hot mess. One wants to rush into the middle and shout "Stop this, the lot of you," but what would be the next step? Supposing one somehow militarily defeated... everybody... who would form the next government? How? This is the Afghanistan problem, of course. And even given 20 years of occupation and new government we saw what happened there.

Whereas in Ukraine, despite the "independent" regions and despite some of the many excuses Russia has been making for itself, Ukraine does have a functioning central government which does (appear to) oppose atrocities against its citizens. So there continues to be a “side” on which one can intervene which appears to be on the side of the lives of the country’s citizens. That government isn’t perfect (no side ever is, especially while there have been armed separatists and a foreign power controlling parts of the country), but it’s recognisable as a "good enough" side for many outsiders to support. This is being further underlined by what we're seeing of the way Russian soldiers have been treating people.

This is why Zelensky’s call for a foreign legion has had people in eg Nigeria turning up trying to volunteer. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is clear cut aggression by a foreign state, and the Russians’ treatment of civilians is looking increasingly like clear cut atrocities.

Kereti Usoroh, a Nigerian living in the capital, Abuja, said his motivations for volunteering had nothing to do with financial gain or the prospect of citizenship. "I already live a comfortable life. If I wanted to go to Europe, I'd do it through education, not war," the 29-year-old lawyer said. "This is about beating a bully - injustice for one is injustice for all."
www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-60712913[/quote]
I totally agree with this.

But I also think there is another factor at play here, and that is Iraq. Britain and the US went into Iraq on the understanding that Saddam Hussain has used chemical weapons on his own and Iranian civilians and (probably) believing he had weapons of mass destruction. The response to Iraq was very negative, with a lot of people saying they shouldn't have gone.
The conclusion most people have drawn from this was that the US and Britain shouldn't intervene, no matter what without a UN resolution (and even, a lot say they shouldn't) - and especially in a place like Syria where the Russians were actively supporting the government (which didn't happen in Iraq). There were loads of demonstrations and Stop the War movements aimed at making sure there was no Western intervention in Syria - arguing that it was a repeat Iraq and that people must learn from history. Britain and the US listened and didn't intervene in Syria, even when red lines were crossed and they knew they were being crossed.
The message that therefore was sent loud and clear as a consequence of Iraq is that "the West" mustn't ever intervene, and Putin knew that this is the mindset and counted on it in each of these places.
And indeed, Britain and NATO and the US have to a certain extent been keeping to this script, having learnt from Iraq and are not intervening militarily in Ukraine, even knowing that atrocities were undoubtedly going to occur.
The other factor to bear in mind is that atrocities can be better hidden if you win. A lot of these are coming to light now because Putin is withdrawing. When you don't have to withdraw, they much easier to cover up. But if one can only go to war when one has cast iron evidence (and not just intelligence, which as we discovered in Iraq can be wrong), then you are likely to sit on the sidelines, and hence not win the war, and hence not see these atrocities.

PaperTyger · 04/04/2022 21:14

I'm not a Tory voter Alexandra.

Again Putin must really be angry that his money was wasted.
Massive out cry over Merkel on twitter now, disbelief at her polices over 16 years? Major ex German politicians has publicly apologised.
The massive issues with Merkel is she had the power of that huge long term in office.
Unfortunately the way our politicians work means that lack of long term aims like dictators can put into practice.

I just find the comments strange like when I Said west I mean the west the west is the bloody people And their leader's.

It's odd that you went and qualified that.
I post on here assuming we all know the basics.

TiddyTidTwo · 04/04/2022 21:16

First major surrender of Ukrainian forces in Mariupol, reportedly 267 marines.^

Shit. No. Please no.

PaperTyger · 04/04/2022 21:18

On another thread it had many posts and articles exposing Diana abbots views on this war.
The last I heard starmer had purged them?

TargusEasting · 04/04/2022 21:18

I would like to see the following.

  1. A new Court is created.
  1. This Court is initially formed by the G12 countries en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_Twelve
  1. Other countries are invited to join, eg: New Zealand, South Africa, Portugal, Ireland, Greece, etc. These are the founding nations.
  1. Those founding nations then automatically sanction all immovable property within their own jurisdictions that are registered as owned by individuals or other entities located in an exhaustive list of non-participating countries, but explicitly all those offshore and secretive havens such as Panama, BVI, Cayman, Bahamas, Barbados, Maldives, but also extends to EU states such as Cyprus, Malta and dependencies of Guernsey and Jersey.
  1. The burden will then be on the true owners of the property to reveal their identities and prove the legal flow of funds to acquire the property and crucially to prove that local property taxes and running costs were borne from their legal resources with complete and compelling evidence that is capable of being forensically audited.
  1. Costs for running the court and auditing the evidence are initially borne by the state, but with full reimbursement if the property is proven to have been acquired soundly.
  1. Failure to provide the evidence and engage with the court fully and openly leads to the automatic confiscation of property within 12 months. In the meantime is cannot be sold. The property may then be requisitioned by the respective State and used to provide social housing or sold with proceeds used to assist victims of any forms of criminal activity.

Here is the 'nub' - States do not have to prove money-laundering offences have occurred to confiscate property and restitute funds. Individuals have to prove - on the balance of probabilities - that their wealth was legitimately earned.

The small detail can be filled in later. But you get the point - this would shift the balance substantially against money launderers, which is mostly Russian or Chinese oligarchs, because there is a 180 degree turn in the burden of proof.

Ijsbear · 04/04/2022 21:19

Can we please please not bicker. This isn't the thread for it. Take it PMs - please?

@Wannago I think many people believed the 1st Iraq war was justified, but the 2nd really wasn't. Seems the ripples of that are reaching very far.

OP posts:
TargusEasting · 04/04/2022 21:23

@Ijsbear

^OSINTtechnical *@Osinttechnical* · 33m First major surrender of Ukrainian forces in Mariupol, reportedly 267 marines.^
I suspect it is not the first. But the information flow needs to get a bit more honest now.

It is going to get tougher and we need to accept that people do horrific things to each other. At the same time, Russia is also defeated in the long game. It has no moral strength.

jgw1 · 04/04/2022 21:27

[quote Alexandra2001]@jgw1 not forgetting Diane Abbott.[/quote]
and Keir's beer.

TiddyTidTwo · 04/04/2022 21:28

"I think many people believed the 1st Iraq war was justified, but the 2nd really wasn't. Seems the ripples of that are reaching very far"

I agree. I was in the army during the Iraq invasion. Total load of crap! I will never forgive or forget Blair/bush for that.

That's why I'm so angry about Ukraine. This is different and now we lack any kind of balls to stop what we know as TRUTH, not some WMD bullshit lie, but TRUTH. We've all seen it. I have a hard stomach so went looking for the truth. I've seen the videos and the pictures and it's abhorrent.

EsmaCannonball · 04/04/2022 21:29

Mariupol now has its very own puppet/collaborator mayor, Kostyantyn Ivashchenko from a local pro-Russian party. Given the atrocities we have seen, I wonder what will happen to those Ukrainians who have welcomed all this?