Ukraine Invasion Part 18

[Ijsbear]

Place for information, discussion, points of view, useful links and above all, a hope that this sovereign land can regain its freedom.

@WeAreTheHeroes

You do know they weren't truly democratic? He controls the press, the judiciary, etc and is a kleptocrat. Once Hungary joined NATO and the EU he started consolidating his power.

True - but don't cut off the country or you will cut off the minority.

Remember the Remainers were the minority.

@PerkingFaintly

Yeah, very good points about Syria. You're right.

Guess that while it was clear that this horror was going to happen, it's getting to me

Can the UK be forced to leave the EU for electing Boris

What? Leave again?

@Hillsmakeyoustrong

I don't think Russia is any match at all for NATO. Or those countries in other configurations.

Clearly he is though. He's just slaughtered and raped his way through multiple towns whilst NATO nations witnessed every single development. And now we are proposing to send people in with their clipboards to decide whether war crimes have been committed or not. I know geopolitics is not black and white but all this talk of red lines...I guess it depends on whose blood the line gets drawn in.

Every NATO leader from Biden to Boris to Macron made it more than clear we would not intervene, whatever happened, as Ukraine isn't in NATO. Unlike Syria, no red lines were drawn.

I have always believed that Putin will always back down, when stood up too BUT it is a huge gamble, not one i'd want to risk taking, there is of course far we could do, not least all clubbing together to support countries that rely heavily on Russian gas, acting collectively & halting gas and oil imports.

if we wont risk war, then we must do what we can and that means some pretty harsh actions on individuals with huge wealth too.

"But I do wonder if having international investigators- police, ex military or whatever in Ukraine documenting Putin's war crimes, makes it harder for Putin to attack those places again?"

He's already done it. More to come elsewhere in Ukraine.

A friend posted this on SM. Not sure if it's been mentioned yet. Gas reserves in Ukraine - could they be the main reason for the Russion invasion?

Good analytical thread

twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1510745444065943559

Alexandra that's exactly what is happening?
What we are doing.

Inaction = complicity is gaining traction.

I think it's time to say the West as a collective of democracy has utterly failed in the context of this illegal act of violence against a peaceful sovereign nation.

@PaperTyger

Alexandra that's exactly what is happening? What we are doing.

No we aren't at all.

We are selling our NS oil/gas to the highest bidder and expecting others, like Germany and Italy to destroy their economies.

There needs to be a latter day Marshall Plan to fund European countries dependant on Russia for energy, countries & companies have to dig in and the 159 billionaires in UK have to contribute far more or we carry on using Russian gas?

@Alexandra2001 it was a huge gamble along the line of heads I win, tails you lose. We get to either a) die in world war three or b) live under an international dictator whose favourite line is "don't make me press the red button." As I read one devastating headline after the next, Im not sure I like option b.

@PaperTyger

Inaction = complicity is gaining traction.

I think it's time to say the West as a collective of democracy has utterly failed in the context of this illegal act of violence against a peaceful sovereign nation.

Thats the peoples (i.e us the voters) of Europe USA, there is no appetite for NATO to go to war with Russia.

Politicians tend to reflect their voters views.

Inaction = complicity is gaining traction.*

This in fucking spades.

We really need to pull our head out the sand. Sanctions are not going to make this murderous swine stop, nor speeches.

He doesn't care. He must be stopped. Kicking the can down the road won't help future generations

@Hillsmakeyoustrong In earlier threads i wanted peace with Putin because of how Russia conducts war, attrition and with zero regard for civilians.

Once he invaded, we have not done enough and have been fearful of Putins threats, understandable but as you say, if we really believe our own argument not to intervene, then this also applies if Russia invades a NATO country... why risk nuclear war over little ole Latvia ?

We cannot undo Bucha or Mariupol but we can stop it happening in Odesa and i would like to see NATO regain access to the Black Sea and give Ukraine its ports back, if that means confrontation with Russia's navy, so be it, we cannot allow rogue states to close off international waters.

Francis scarr on twitter has posted purportedly some stuff from Russia media.

Illia Ponomarenko

Upon my rough estimates, Russia in fact has withdrawn from nearly 40% (!) of the territories it occupied in Ukraine since February 24. Within just 2 or 3 days.
The the whole of Kyiv, Chernihiv, Sumy regions.
The war’s phase 1 is Russia’s crushing defeat.
Now phase 2 is begins.
twitter.com/iaponomarenko/status/1511062161459757073?s=21

Alexandra yes, the west.

The people's the leaders as well whom you seem so scared to criticize ( except Boris) that includes all the ones who still legitimised him after Crimea and all his atrocities.

Some ex German leading politicians are publicly apologies if and admitting to mistakes

Once he invaded, we have not done enough and have been fearful of Putins threats, understandable but as you say, if we really believe our own argument not to intervene, then this also applies if Russia invades a NATO country... why risk nuclear war over little ole Latvia ?

As horrible as it is, is there a level of game play that we're missing here? Putin was given a green light from the off when he was told the US/NATO wouldn't intervene with Ukraine. I guess the hope would be re Latvia etc that he understands the rules of the game. There was no rule about Ukraine. The rules, if anything, allowed it. It's all gross. Maybe it's even scarier than this though and there are no rules. Idfk anything anymore!

@PaperTyger

Francis scarr on twitter has posted purportedly some stuff from Russia media.

Can you summarise? I've had to step away from Twitter

Francis scarr russian media " the swamp that supports passively and actively supports it must endure the horrors of war and digest the experience for atonement" .. not verbatim.

If someone can link road the thread... it's pretty alarming

Ukraine is unviable as nation-state and attempts to build one has led to Nazism

Ah yes thanks - I did read this earlier. It's shocking

De Nazification is also clearly de Ukrainian ism