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Ukraine Invasion Part 18

999 replies

Ijsbear · 02/04/2022 14:10

Place for information, discussion, points of view, useful links and above all, a hope that this sovereign land can regain its freedom.

OP posts:
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15
PaperTyger · 04/04/2022 19:06

I'm sure without the ultimate threat of nuclear annihilation of course we would have gone in.

I don't think Russia is any match at all for NATO.
Or those countries in other configurations.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 04/04/2022 19:06

I also think that Hungary should be ejected from the EU now.

Why? They had democratic elections, we might not like the results, but we cannot start evicting for that. Where do we end?

PaperTyger · 04/04/2022 19:13

Pippin yes.

Democratic countries needs.some agreement that if another democratic country is threatened we /they need to get in there with peace keeping forces get every thing pointing at them.

Had we had some mechanism to get into Ukraine to meet tanks and soilder tank to tank, backed up with full military might and the counter threat of nuke's does anyone think Putin would have pressed go?

WeAreTheHeroes · 04/04/2022 19:13

You do know they weren't truly democratic? He controls the press, the judiciary, etc and is a kleptocrat. Once Hungary joined NATO and the EU he started consolidating his power.

PaperTyger · 04/04/2022 19:14

Chardonnay because they don't seem to hold the Same values as the rest of the EU/ Europe.

Surely the EU is built around shared values.

borntobequiet · 04/04/2022 19:14

Under Article 7, an EU country’s rights can be suspended, which means it loses its vote. But there’s no mechanism for expelling a country from the EU.

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2022 19:15

Afp news agency @afp
#UPDATE Sergiy Gaiday, the governor of Ukraine's eastern Lugansk region, said on Monday that Russian forces "are preparing for a full-scale big breakthrough," and urged residents to leave the region as soon as possible

Seeing lots about a new big attack from the East and plans to take Kharkiv as part of that. Kharkiv is very close to the border so few people had left before the Russians more or less laid seige to it.

I can't help but think that going forward the Russians will be even more brutal now Pandora's box has opened.

jgw1 · 04/04/2022 19:15

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

I also think that Hungary should be ejected from the EU now.

Why? They had democratic elections, we might not like the results, but we cannot start evicting for that. Where do we end?

Can the UK be forced to leave the EU for electing Boris?
TiddyTidTwo · 04/04/2022 19:17

I wouldn't want to do it. Sorry.

I get it. I really do.

But I would. Being ex army I probably have a different mindset. I'll die for the person next to me. I'll stand up and say this is wrong and I would fight for that.

But I can survive under a basha in minus temperatures and that was only in training in Sherwood Forest Grin

PaperTyger · 04/04/2022 19:18

Jgw1

What a load of rubbish are you really comparing Victor orban who is on Putin's side to Boris who is pushing for more aid to Ukraine?

What a load of utter nonsense.

jgw1 · 04/04/2022 19:24

@PaperTyger

Jgw1

What a load of rubbish are you really comparing Victor orban who is on Putin's side to Boris who is pushing for more aid to Ukraine?

What a load of utter nonsense.

I thought it had been well established that Boris was paid for by Putin?
Ijsbear · 04/04/2022 19:26

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

I also think that Hungary should be ejected from the EU now.

Why? They had democratic elections, we might not like the results, but we cannot start evicting for that. Where do we end?

Essentially because I'm suspicious of Russian involvement in that country via propeganda and money and because I do believe that the leader will be causing strife from within now. We don't need a pawn of Russia in the inner councils of the EU.

Not having an ejection mechanism is perhaps a problem! :)

OP posts:
TiddyTidTwo · 04/04/2022 19:28

Agree. Hungary is a haemorrhoid

PaperTyger · 04/04/2022 19:29

Clearly money Putin wastedHmm

jgw1 · 04/04/2022 19:30

@PaperTyger

Clearly money Putin wastedHmm
Appears to be better value than the money spent on the Russian armies super yachts.
TiddyTidTwo · 04/04/2022 19:30

Yes. Boris speaks louder than Biden. Hence why he's one of putins no1 enemies.

Reckon they've fallen out myself

PerkingFaintly · 04/04/2022 19:32

I certainly care about Syria and what has been done to people there.

One of the major differences between what's happening in Ukraine and what's happening in Syria is that Ukraine has a democratically elected government which opposes the Russian invasion. The Syrian government, on the other hand, invited the Russians in and their atrocities were carried out with its complicity.

"The Syrian civil war [...] is an ongoing multi-sided civil war in Syria fought between the Syrian Arab Republic led by Syrian president Bashar al-Assad (supported by domestic and foreign allies) and various domestic and foreign forces that oppose both the Syrian government and each other, in varying combinations."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war

Syria's head of state, Assad, already ran a harsh regime which prompted anti-government demonstrations in 2011 as part of the Arab Spring. Out of that grew a civil war which has been joined by a large number of outside groups, including Da'esh against Assad, and Russia for Assad at his request.

Syria is a hot mess. One wants to rush into the middle and shout "Stop this, the lot of you," but what would be the next step? Supposing one somehow militarily defeated... everybody... who would form the next government? How? This is the Afghanistan problem, of course. And even given 20 years of occupation and new government we saw what happened there.

Whereas in Ukraine, despite the "independent" regions and despite some of the many excuses Russia has been making for itself, Ukraine does have a functioning central government which does (appear to) oppose atrocities against its citizens. So there continues to be a “side” on which one can intervene which appears to be on the side of the lives of the country’s citizens. That government isn’t perfect (no side ever is, especially while there have been armed separatists and a foreign power controlling parts of the country), but it’s recognisable as a "good enough" side for many outsiders to support. This is being further underlined by what we're seeing of the way Russian soldiers have been treating people.

This is why Zelensky’s call for a foreign legion has had people in eg Nigeria turning up trying to volunteer. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is clear cut aggression by a foreign state, and the Russians’ treatment of civilians is looking increasingly like clear cut atrocities.

Kereti Usoroh, a Nigerian living in the capital, Abuja, said his motivations for volunteering had nothing to do with financial gain or the prospect of citizenship. "I already live a comfortable life. If I wanted to go to Europe, I'd do it through education, not war," the 29-year-old lawyer said. "This is about beating a bully - injustice for one is injustice for all."
www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-60712913

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 04/04/2022 19:33

I don't think Russia is any match at all for NATO.
Or those countries in other configurations.

Clearly he is though. He's just slaughtered and raped his way through multiple towns whilst NATO nations witnessed every single development. And now we are proposing to send people in with their clipboards to decide whether war crimes have been committed or not. I know geopolitics is not black and white but all this talk of red lines...I guess it depends on whose blood the line gets drawn in.

JacquelineCarlyle · 04/04/2022 19:35

Completely agree @Hillsmakeyoustrong

TiddyTidTwo · 04/04/2022 19:36

Exactly hills.

Makes me sick tbh.

PaperTyger · 04/04/2022 19:37

Hills , yes, clip boards v Putin's rampage.

Sad

Of course I did mean in the context of a toe to toe war.

Why else without nukes would any greater army watch whilst a smaller marouder did such damage??

jgw1 · 04/04/2022 19:42

@Hillsmakeyoustrong

I don't think Russia is any match at all for NATO. Or those countries in other configurations.

Clearly he is though. He's just slaughtered and raped his way through multiple towns whilst NATO nations witnessed every single development. And now we are proposing to send people in with their clipboards to decide whether war crimes have been committed or not. I know geopolitics is not black and white but all this talk of red lines...I guess it depends on whose blood the line gets drawn in.

I agree.

But I do wonder if having international investigators- police, ex military or whatever in Ukraine documenting Putin's war crimes, makes it harder for Putin to attack those places again?

Alexandra2001 · 04/04/2022 19:43

@TiddyTidTwo

Yes. Boris speaks louder than Biden. Hence why he's one of putins no1 enemies.

Reckon they've fallen out myself

No he doesn't, he refused to call Putin a war criminal, when Biden did.

Boris is full of shit.

PerkingFaintly · 04/04/2022 19:43

That was partly in response to Autumnwater's post about how information gets out.

One effect of having a Ukrainian government that opposes the Russian invasion, is that the government is publicising what the Russian forces have done.

In Syria, Assad's government didn't have the same desire to publicise Russian forces' actions and see them take international blame for them.

WeAreTheHeroes · 04/04/2022 19:45

Just going back to the disgusting behaviour of withdrawing Russian soldiers - I'm watching Channel 4 News and there was an item on climate change and the melting of the glaciers in Peru and degradation of the quality of the water supply. The Peruvian being interviewed (in Spanish) said that people shit in the water. The translation was that the water was dirty. That just reminded me of the Tolstoy mistranslation noted earlier in this thread.